AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

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binocular
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AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

Post by binocular » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:00 pm

Greetings.


In AN 7.48, what does it mean to "attend inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties etc."?
A woman attends inwardly to her feminine faculties, her feminine gestures, her feminine manners, feminine poise, feminine desires, feminine voice, feminine charms.
and for a man
A man attends inwardly to his masculine faculties, masculine gestures, masculine manners, masculine poise, masculine desires, masculine voice, masculine charms.



At first glance, this seemed like a no-brainer, but on second thought, I really can't pin it down. I'd appreciate some input. Thank you.
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Idappaccayata
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Re: AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

Post by Idappaccayata » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:10 pm

It seems to me that it's just pointing out that being attached to these qualities how problematic. A form of self view.
A dying man can only rely upon his wisdom, if he developed it. Wisdom is not dependent upon any phenomenon originated upon six senses. It is developed on the basis of the discernment of the same. That’s why when one’s senses start to wither and die, the knowledge of their nature remains unaffected. When there is no wisdom, there will be despair, in the face of death.

- Ajahn Nyanamoli Thero

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Re: AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:12 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:00 pm
Greetings.


In AN 7.48, what does it mean to "attend inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties etc."?
A woman attends inwardly to her feminine faculties, her feminine gestures, her feminine manners, feminine poise, feminine desires, feminine voice, feminine charms.
and for a man
A man attends inwardly to his masculine faculties, masculine gestures, masculine manners, masculine poise, masculine desires, masculine voice, masculine charms.



At first glance, this seemed like a no-brainer, but on second thought, I really can't pin it down. I'd appreciate some input. Thank you.
I've always taken it to mean that an awareness of one's own sexual power and identity is a precondition for desiring another.

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Re: AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

Post by sentinel » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:21 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:00 pm
In AN 7.48, what does it mean to "attend inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties etc."?

Just fyi it appear the SC has a different text with regard to an 7.48 .
https://suttacentral.net/an7.48/en/sujato


numbered discourses 7

5. a great sacrifice

48. Perceptions in Brief

Paṭhamasaññā Sutta

“Mendicants, these seven perceptions, when developed and cultivated, are very fruitful and beneficial. They culminate in the deathless and end with the deathless.
Last edited by sentinel on Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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binocular
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Re: AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

Post by binocular » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:23 pm

AN 7.48 wrote:“A woman attends inwardly to her feminine faculties, her feminine gestures, her feminine manners, feminine poise, feminine desires, feminine voice, feminine charms. She is excited by that, delighted by that.
Suppose a woman looks into the mirror and feels excited, delighted by what she sees.
This could mean that she is attending to her feminine faculties etc.

But where do those feminine faculties etc. come from? Are they somehow inherent to the female body, or are they subject to volition, arise based on volition?

- - - -
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:12 pm
I've always taken it to mean that an awareness of one's own sexual power and identity is a precondition for desiring another.
Agreed. But I'm wondering how that works out. Inasmuch is this simply "how things work" (in the same way that water is wet and fire is hot), and where does volition come into this?


According to the sutta, there is lack of bondage when a woman doesn't attend to her feminine faculties etc. How does she not attend to them?
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Re: AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

Post by sentinel » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:26 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:23 pm


Suppose a woman looks into the mirror and feels excited, delighted by what she sees.
This could mean that she is attending to her feminine faculties etc.

But where do those feminine faculties etc. come from? Are they somehow inherent to the female body, or are they subject to volition, arise based on volition?

- - - -


According to the sutta, there is lack of bondage when a woman doesn't attend to her feminine faculties etc. How does she not attend to them?
It is a habitual tendency . By not giving in to that tendency I think .
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Re: AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

Post by binocular » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:30 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:26 pm
It is a habitual tendency . By not giving in to that tendency I think .
How? Could you elaborate?
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Re: AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:36 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:23 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:12 pm
I've always taken it to mean that an awareness of one's own sexual power and identity is a precondition for desiring another.
Agreed. But I'm wondering how that works out. Inasmuch is this simply "how things work" (in the same way that water is wet and fire is hot), and where does volition come into this?


According to the sutta, there is lack of bondage when a woman doesn't attend to her feminine faculties etc. How does she not attend to them?
Not sure. It might even be a florid way pointing to human differences; that we are attracted in that way to what feels different from ourselves. Faculties is an interesting word here, meaning as it does the capacity to do something. They are, in effect, prompts to action.

I guess a person doesn't attend to those faculties by being sexless, or by resolving that their sex-specific characteristics are in themselves not lacking anything, that they don't need acting upon in order to be "fulfilled."

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Re: AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

Post by binocular » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:50 pm

On second thought:
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:12 pm
I've always taken it to mean that an awareness of one's own sexual power and identity is a precondition for desiring another.
Awareness. As if one's sexual power and identity would be givens, and one is just either aware of them, or not.
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Re: AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

Post by salayatananirodha » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:52 pm

http://www.palicanon.org/en/sutta-pitaka/transcribed-suttas/majjhima-nikaya/142-mn-88-bhitika-sutta-the-cloak.html wrote:16. ‘And then, after the creepers had disappeared, rice appeared in open spaces,832 free from powder and from husks, fragrant and clean-grained.833 And what they had taken in the evening for supper had grown again and was ripe in the morning, and what they had taken in the morning for breakfast was ripe again by evening, with no sign of reaping. And these beings set to and fed on this rice, and this lasted for a very long time. And as they did so, their bodies became coarser still, and the difference in their looks became even greater. And the females developed female sex-organs,834 and the males developed male organs. And the women became excessively preoccupied with men, and the men with women. Owing to this excessive preoccupation with each other, passion was aroused, and their bodies burnt with lust. And later, because of this burning, they indulged in sexual activity.835 But those who saw them indulging threw dust, ashes or [89] cow-dung at them, crying: “Die, you filthy beast! How can one being do such things to another!” Just as today, in some districts, when a daughter-in-law is led out, some people throw dirt at her, some ashes, and some cow-dung, without realising that they are repeating an ancient observance. What was considered bad form in those days is now considered good form.836

17. ‘And those beings who in those days indulged in sex were not allowed into a village or town for one or two months. Accordingly those who indulged for an excessively long period in such immoral practices began to build themselves dwellings so as to indulge under cover.837
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

binocular
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Re: AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

Post by binocular » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:59 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:36 pm
Not sure. It might even be a florid way pointing to human differences; that we are attracted in that way to what feels different from ourselves.
It could be an instance of dependent co-arising: When a woman attends to her feminine faculties etc., it is inevitable that she also attends to masculine faculties. (Although I'm not sure if I got the necessary elements of the dependence relationship right, here.)

Can a woman attend to her feminine faculties etc., but not be excited and delighted by that?

I'm wondering where the break-off point is, where the when-this-is-this-is is or can be cut deliberately.
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Re: AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:11 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:59 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:36 pm
Not sure. It might even be a florid way pointing to human differences; that we are attracted in that way to what feels different from ourselves.
It could be an instance of dependent co-arising: When a woman attends to her feminine faculties etc., it is inevitable that she also attends to masculine faculties. (Although I'm not sure if I got the necessary elements of the dependence relationship right, here.)
I don't know if that's what the compilers of the canon thought, but that sounds insightful and right to me.

Another way of thinking about it is that the bondage to the opposite sex doesn't (as many people imagine) just take place through an awareness of the characteristics of the opposite sex. We can be aware of those characteristics without feeling any desire, as when we aesthetically and disinterestedly judge that someone is attractive, or that they have certain features. Scientists and fashion photographers think like this without getting excited at all. It is only when we attend to our own powers of response to these features - to put it crudely, we think what we are capably of doing to those features presented to us - that desire arises.

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Re: AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

Post by sentinel » Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:38 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:30 pm
How? Could you elaborate?
My understanding is , a person would behave in certain ways or thinks or acts , that is their habits . E.g. A lady that walks very "ladylike" which is a kind of feminine gentleness , being vivacious and an oomph attribute . So does mens in their own ways .
By constant reflections to these behavior one do not indulge in it and mindfully staying with distant one dissociate from it .
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Re: AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

Post by chownah » Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:52 am

binocular wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:59 pm
Can a woman attend to her feminine faculties etc., but not be excited and delighted by that?
A woman who attends to HER feminine faculties is endulging in false self...if a woman does not identify with the feelings which arise then they are just feelings and there is noone there to crave after those feelings.
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Re: AN 7.48: "Attending inwardly to feminine/masculine faculties"?

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:12 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:52 am
A woman who attends to HER feminine faculties is endulging in false self...if a woman does not identify with the feelings which arise then they are just feelings and there is noone there to crave after those feelings.
How does she not identify with those feelings?
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