Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

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sentinel
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by sentinel » Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:41 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:56 pm
Nibbāna isn't a state of samādhi, but it's in a state of samādhi that it's apprehended.
Bhante ,

Can one say , an arahant could not apprehend nibbana when not in samadhi ?
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:10 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:41 pm
Can one say, an arahant could not apprehend nibbana when not in samadhi ?
In reflection (paccavekkhaṇa), which doesn't take place in a deep samādhi state, the arahant can apprehend the fact that he's free of attachment, aversion and delusion. But when we speak of him apprehending nibbāna in this sense we're using 'nibbāna' rather loosely to refer to the lived experience of being without defilement. When we're talking about what the mind actually cognizes at the moment of awakening (and on later occasions whenever entering the fruition attainment), then we're talking about something that always involves a jhānic consciousness.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:22 pm

Alīno wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:20 pm
Can we say that:
- in deluded state of mind there is multitude of objects + Nibbana, that's why it's difficult to find Nibbana from it.
- in concentrated state of Samadhi there is only two objects: our object of concentration + Nibbana, so that's why Nibbana can be relatively easy apprehended from it?
There's no cognizing nibbāna on an occasion when the mind is deluded.

On the occasion of awakening, nibbāna is cognized by a mind that is jhānically concentrated.

But on most occasions when the mind is jhānically concentrated the object of cognition will be the meditation subject, not nibbāna.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Alīno
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by Alīno » Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:06 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:22 pm
Alīno wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:20 pm
Can we say that:
- in deluded state of mind there is multitude of objects + Nibbana, that's why it's difficult to find Nibbana from it.
- in concentrated state of Samadhi there is only two objects: our object of concentration + Nibbana, so that's why Nibbana can be relatively easy apprehended from it?
There's no cognizing nibbāna on an occasion when the mind is deluded.

On the occasion of awakening, nibbāna is cognized by a mind that is jhānically concentrated.

But on most occasions when the mind is jhānically concentrated the object of cognition will be the meditation subject, not nibbāna.
Thank you Bhante :anjali:
And what about Unconditioned element or Dhamma which is the base for awakening, dipassion and Nibbana to accure? It seems that this dhamma is always here but obstructed with defilements... what you can say?

PS i have just read your answer just before, and it seems that i have answer :anjali:
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...

chownah
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:49 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:22 pm
Alīno wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:20 pm
Can we say that:
- in deluded state of mind there is multitude of objects + Nibbana, that's why it's difficult to find Nibbana from it.
- in concentrated state of Samadhi there is only two objects: our object of concentration + Nibbana, so that's why Nibbana can be relatively easy apprehended from it?
There's no cognizing nibbāna on an occasion when the mind is deluded.

On the occasion of awakening, nibbāna is cognized by a mind that is jhānically concentrated.

But on most occasions when the mind is jhānically concentrated the object of cognition will be the meditation subject, not nibbāna.
When the buddha described his attainment of enlightenment I think he said that his mind became "jhanically concentrated" (4th jhana) and then visions arose. Were these visions (once they arose) then "the meditation subject"?.....and is this what is called vipassana?
chownah

sentinel
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:16 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:10 pm
In reflection (paccavekkhaṇa), which doesn't take place in a deep samādhi state, the arahant can apprehend the fact that he's free of attachment, aversion and delusion. But when we speak of him apprehending nibbāna in this sense we're using 'nibbāna' rather loosely to refer to the lived experience of being without defilement. When we're talking about what the mind actually cognizes at the moment of awakening (and on later occasions whenever entering the fruition attainment), then we're talking about something that always involves a jhānic consciousness.
So , is it only at the moment of awakening where the mind in Deep Samadhi (ie 1st to 4th jhana or higher) take nibbana as it object ?
If that is the case the arahant mind seemingly not continuously in the state of nibbana .
Does this contradict that the stream enterer need not jhana to attain nibbana ?
If stream enterer attains nibbana only for a moment then revert back to ordinary consciousness , does this mean SE still have ignorance ?
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:25 am

sentinel wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:16 am
So , is it only at the moment of awakening where the mind in Deep Samadhi (ie 1st to 4th jhana or higher) take nibbana as it object ?
If that is the case the arahant mind seemingly not continuously in the state of nibbana .
His mind can be said to be "continuously in nibbāna" in one sense, namely, that the kilesas are never present in it. But not in the sense that it continuously has nibbāna as its object.
sentinel wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:16 am
Does this contradict that the stream enterer need not jhana to attain nibbana ?
Nobody says that jhāna isn't needed at all. Even the "dry insight" conception of the path holds that nibbāna is apprehended by a jhānic consciousness; what it rejects is the notion of the development of mundane jhāna being a prerequisite to awakening.
sentinel wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:16 am
If stream enterer attains nibbana only for a moment then revert back to ordinary consciousness , does this mean SE still have ignorance ?
Since even the non-returner isn't yet free of the fetter of avijjā, it goes without saying that the sotāpanna is still fettered with it. But I don't see how this is connected with the manner in which nibbāna is attained.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Dhammanando
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:34 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:49 am
When the buddha described his attainment of enlightenment I think he said that his mind became "jhanically concentrated" (4th jhana) and then visions arose. Were these visions (once they arose) then "the meditation subject"?.....and is this what is called vipassana?
Can you quote the sutta you have in mind?
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:20 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:25 am
Since even the non-returner isn't yet free of the fetter of avijjā, it goes without saying that the sotāpanna is still fettered with it. But I don't see how this is connected with the manner in which nibbāna is attained.
If a person have not abandoned avijja , then how can s/he attain nibbana !
But do you find any text clearly says sotapanna sakadagamin anagamin abandoned avijja ?
I noticed texts says arahant abandoned conceit at the end stage .




https://suttacentral.net/sn22.72/en/sujato

This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’
That’s how to know and see so that the mind is rid of ego, possessiveness, and conceit for this conscious body and all external stimuli; and going beyond discrimination, it’s peaceful and well freed.” …
And Venerable Surādha became one of the perfected.
Last edited by sentinel on Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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chownah
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:55 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:34 am
chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:49 am
When the buddha described his attainment of enlightenment I think he said that his mind became "jhanically concentrated" (4th jhana) and then visions arose. Were these visions (once they arose) then "the meditation subject"?.....and is this what is called vipassana?
Can you quote the sutta you have in mind?
sn56.11
mn36
mn125
If you know of other similar things I would be glad to hear your comments on them too.
chownah

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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:14 am

sentinel wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:20 am
If a person have not abandoned avijja , then how could s/he attained nibbana !
If stream-entrants had abandoned ignorance entirely, there would be no cause in them for further birth. But since they are still subject to birth, ignorance must still be present in them.

As it is, the sekha disciples have abandoned "ignorance consisting in wrong theory" (micchāpaṭipatti avijjā), i.e., the kind of ignorance that's associated with wrong view. But the higher fetter of ignorance consisting in no theory (appaṭipatti avijjā) remains intact until arahantship.
sentinel wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:20 am
But do you find any text clearly says sotapanna sakadagamin anagamin abandoned avijja ?
I've already said that they haven't done so. They have abandoned wrong view, however, and therefore micchāpaṭipatti avijjā too.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:37 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:14 am

If stream-entrants had abandoned ignorance entirely, there would be no cause in them for further birth. But since they are still subject to birth, ignorance must still be present in them.
If SE has abandoned avijja , one gone two to go , the cause for future birth would be attachment and aversion which are not yet uprooted .


As it is, the sekha disciples have abandoned "ignorance consisting in wrong theory" (micchāpaṭipatti avijjā), i.e., the kind of ignorance that's associated with wrong view. But the higher fetter of ignorance consisting in no theory (appaṭipatti avijjā) remains intact until arahantship.
And where in the sutta stated above that Sekha abandoned wrong theory but not no theory ?


According to Manual of Insight
By Sobhana (Mahā caññʻ Cha rā toʻ ʼA rhaṅʻ), Mahasi Sayadaw :

micchāpaṭipatti avijjā is ignorance of pleasure and its causes .

appaṭipatti avijjā is ignorance of suffering and its causes .
Last edited by sentinel on Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:27 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:55 am
sn56.11
The Dhammacakkappavattanasutta states that the vision that arose was of "the four Noble Truths as they really are in their three phases and twelve aspects". The seeing of them is vipassanā but they weren't the meditation subject as they were seen after emergence from jhāna.
chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:55 am
mn36
mn125
Likewise with the Mahāsaccaka and Dantabhūmi Suttas.
“When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the destruction of the taints. I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is suffering’;…‘This is the origin of suffering’;…‘This is the cessation of suffering’;…‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering’;…‘These are the taints’;…‘This is the origin of the taints’;…‘This is the cessation of the taints’;…‘This is the way leading to the cessation of the taints.’

“When I knew and saw thus, my mind was liberated from the taint of sensual desire, from the taint of being, and from the taint of ignorance. When it was liberated there came the knowledge: ‘It is liberated.’ I directly knew: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’

“This was the third true knowledge attained by me in the last watch of the night. Ignorance was banished and true knowledge arose, darkness was banished and light arose, as happens in one who abides diligent, ardent, and resolute. But such pleasant feeling that arose in me did not invade my mind and remain.
With the mind composed thus … fixed, immovable, he directs his mind to the knowledge of the destruction of the cankers. He comprehends as it really is: This is anguish, this is the arising of anguish, this is the stopping of anguish, this is the course leading to the stopping of anguish. He comprehends as it really is: These are the cankers, this is the arising of the cankers, this is the stopping of the cankers, this is the course leading to the stopping of the cankers.

Knowing thus, seeing thus, his mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and his mind is freed from the canker of becoming and his mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom the knowledge comes to be: I am freed; and he comprehends: Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the Brahma-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Dhammanando
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:01 pm

sentinel wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:37 am
If SE has abandoned avijja , one gone two to go , the cause for future birth would be attachment and aversion which are not yet uprooted .
There can be taṇhā and upādāna without avijjā? That's not a formulation of dependent arising that I'm acquainted with.
sentinel wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:37 am
And where in the sutta stated above that Sekha abandoned wrong theory?
Anywhere that speaks of his attaining to right view and abandoning of wrong view.
sentinel wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:37 am
but not no theory ?
Anywhere that speaks of avijjā as a higher fetter abandoned only by the arahant.
sentinel wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:37 am
According to Manual of Insight
By Sobhana (Mahā caññʻ Cha rā toʻ ʼA rhaṅʻ), Mahasi Sayadaw :

micchāpaṭipatti avijjā meaning is ignorance of pleasure and its causes .

appaṭipatti avijjā meaning is ignorance of suffering and its causes .
Yes, the terms have two senses. The sayādaw is using them in one, I'm using them in the other.
Visuddhimagga

Avijjā aññāṇādassana-mohādibhāvato ekavidhā, appaṭipattimicchāpaṭipattito duvidhā.

Ignorance is singlefold as unknowing, unseeing, delusion, and so on. It is twofold as "no theory" and "wrong theory".

[...]

Yasmā vā panettha avijjā appaṭipattimicchāpaṭipattibhāvena satte abhibhavati paṭalaṃ viya akkhīni. Tadabhibhūto ca bālo punabbhavikehi saṅkhārehi attānaṃ veṭheti kosakārakimi viya kosappadesehi.

Or again, ignorance here as "no theory" and "wrong theory" befogs beings as a cataract does the eyes; the fool befogged by it involves himself in formations that produce further becoming, as a cocoon-spinning caterpillar does.

Visuddhimaggamahāṭīkā

Dukkhādīsu aññāṇavasena 'appaṭipatti', asubhādīsu subhādivipallāsavasena 'micchāpaṭipatti'. Diṭṭhivippayuttavasena vā 'appaṭipatti', diṭṭhisampayuttavasena 'micchāpaṭipatti'.

'No theory' is unknowing about suffering, etc., 'wrong theory' is perverted perception of what is foul, etc., as beautiful, etc., or else 'no theory' is unassociated with false view, and 'wrong theory' is associated with it.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:45 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:01 pm

There can be taṇhā and upādāna without avijjā? That's not a formulation of dependent arising that I'm acquainted with.
SE although already abandoned identity view but still have craving and clinging .
I find this a bit confusing .

If SE have not abandoned avijja how then s/he can attained nibbana ?

Anywhere that speaks of his attaining to right view and abandoning of wrong view.
Isn't this mean attaining sotapanna ?
Anywhere that speaks of avijjā as a higher fetter abandoned only by the arahant.
Is there a avijja of Lower fetter ? I don't see it in the ten fetters list .
Btw , this is a side question , do you think restlessness is a fetter ?
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