Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

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sentinel
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Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by sentinel » Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:28 am

What do you think nibbana is a state of immersion? According to text below it is .

https://suttacentral.net/an11.7/en/sujato

Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’ That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this.
Last edited by sentinel on Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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char101
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by char101 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:40 am

Immersion is a state of consciousness. Nibanna is not consciousness, so it cannot be a state of immersion. But nibanna can be the object of consciousness, this is when the mind "...wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air...", and so on. Ariya puggalas, I believe, are able to take nibanna as an object of consciousness.

SteRo
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by SteRo » Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:57 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:28 am
What do you think nibbana is a state of immersion? According to text below it is .
I think that any descriptive expression in the context of nibbana should not be taken at face value but understood metaphorically. Otherwise absurd questions may arise like in the present case 'what immerses and wherein?'
Also, the translators determine what words they use thus the wording one reads may have a significant individual coloring.

sentinel
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by sentinel » Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:17 pm

SteRo wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:57 pm

Also, the translators determine what words they use thus the wording one reads may have a significant individual coloring.
It seems B.Bodhi translation still the same .
https://suttacentral.net/an10.6/en/bodhi

Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu is percipient thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna.’ It is in this way, Ānanda, that a bhikkhu could obtain such a state of concentration
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santa100
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by santa100 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:44 pm

sentinel wrote:What do you think nibbana is a state of immersion?
No, it is a state of concentration in which the mind is inclined toward Nibbana, but the state itself is not Nibbana.
Ven. Bodhi's note citing the Comy's explanation:
Mp identifies this with the concentration of fruition attainment (phalasamapattisamadhi). This attainment is not the fruition that occurs for a few moments immediately following the path, but a special meditative state accessible only to those who have already attained one of the four paths and its subsequent fruition. The attainment, as shown in this sutta, does not take any of the mundane, conditioned meditation objects as its support; its support is the unconditioned nibbana, experienced directly and immediately. The commentaries hold that this attainment is graded as fourfold according to the four stages of realization (from stream-entry to arahantship).

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cappuccino
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by cappuccino » Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:00 pm

char101 wrote: Nibanna is not consciousness, so it cannot be
Nibbāna is consciousness
Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around
Last edited by cappuccino on Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.

sentinel
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by sentinel » Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:07 pm

santa100 wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:44 pm

No, it is a state of concentration in which the mind is inclined toward Nibbana, but the state itself is not Nibbana.
Hi santa , the text appears to state that it is "nibbana" !
https://suttacentral.net/an10.6/en/bodhi

Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu is percipient thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna.’ It is in this way, Ānanda, that a bhikkhu could obtain such a state of concentration
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santa100
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by santa100 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:33 pm

sentinel wrote:Hi santa , the text appears to state that it is "nibbana" !
As already mentioned, the state of concentration helps the mind to incline toward Nibbana. But nowhere in the entire Nikayas would you be able to find the Buddha said that any state of concentration is itself Nibbana.

sentinel
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by sentinel » Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:53 pm

santa100 wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:33 pm

As already mentioned, the state of concentration helps the mind to incline toward Nibbana. But nowhere in the entire Nikayas would you be able to find the Buddha said that any state of concentration is itself Nibbana.
That is someone interpretation , the text above clearly shows that the state of concentration is nibbana .
Unless there were wrongly translated because I don't know Pali .
https://suttacentral.net/an10.6/en/bodhi

Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu is percipient thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna.’ It is in this way, Ānanda, that a bhikkhu could obtain such a state of concentration
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auto
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by auto » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:01 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:28 am
What do you think nibbana is a state of immersion? According to text below it is .

https://suttacentral.net/an11.7/en/sujato

Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’ That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this.
it could be some sort of review state where person is trying to make sañña into hoti/reality and it could happen that the person could this way attain it.

next Sutta says
https://suttacentral.net/an10.7/en/sujato wrote:“One perception arose in me and another perception ceased: ‘The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.’ “‘Bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ bhavanirodho nibbānan’ti kho me, āvuso, aññāva saññā uppajjati aññāva saññā nirujjhati.
i think he means the stillness where one perception have ceased and another haven't yet arose. That is nirodha and which is nibbana.

santa100
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by santa100 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:13 pm

sentinel wrote:That is someone interpretation , the text above clearly shows that the state of concentration is nibbana.
But the belief that the state of concentration is Nibbana is your own interpretation of the passage. And it's wrong. Why? because regardless if one's able to attain the highest most subtle state of concentration, it'll have to end and one'll have to come out of it at some point. In short, even the highest most subtle state of concentration is still conditioned and subjected to impermanence. It obviously does not make sense to equate such state to Nibbana, which is unconditioned.

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Alīno
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by Alīno » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:53 pm

May be its about Nirodha Sammapatti ?
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...

sentinel
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by sentinel » Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:08 pm

Perhaps bhante Dhammanando could help to explain for us ?!
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Dhammanando
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:56 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:08 pm
Perhaps bhante Dhammanando could help to explain for us ?!
Nibbāna isn't a state of samādhi, but it's in a state of samādhi that it's apprehended.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Alīno
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Re: Is nibbana a state of immersion ?

Post by Alīno » Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:20 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:56 pm
sentinel wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:08 pm
Perhaps bhante Dhammanando could help to explain for us ?!
Nibbāna isn't a state of samādhi, but it's in a state of samādhi that it's apprehended.
Bhante :anjali:
I have a question.

Can we say that:
- in deluded state of mind there is multitude of objects + Nibbana, that's why it's difficult to find Nibbana from it.
- in concentrated state of Samadhi there is only two objects: our object of concentration + Nibbana, so that's why Nibbana can be relatively easy apprehended from it?
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...

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