You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

Post by SarathW » Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:36 am

You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

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Response from Nanavira to his critic:
Nanavira argues that everyone comes to the Canon with a different personal background, which causes each of us to interpret things differently. “Without such a background nothing would ever appear to us with any meaning at all – a spoken or written word would remain a pure presentation, a bare sound or mark without significance”. Ultimately “unless we first introduced our own ideas we should never find that the Canon had any meaning to be deduced”.
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So how you become an Arahant?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

JohnK
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Re: You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

Post by JohnK » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:13 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:36 am
You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!...
This does not seem to be what is being said by what you have cited.
...Nanavira argues that everyone comes to the Canon with a different personal background, which causes each of us to interpret things differently. “Without such a background nothing would ever appear to us with any meaning at all – a spoken or written word would remain a pure presentation, a bare sound or mark without significance”. Ultimately “unless we first introduced our own ideas we should never find that the Canon had any meaning to be deduced”.
I am not familiar with Nanavira's ideas, so I am just relating to what you cited (and so I may be way off per Nanvira). This citation seems to merely say that we all come to the Canon with what we have learned in our lives from our cultural and personal backgrounds; we use that to try to make sense of the teachings. Then (getting a bit beyond the quote), as we study the Canon and practice, the cultural preconceptions begin to appear as such and we gain some capacity to let go of what does not serve progress on the path.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]

pegembara
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Re: You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

Post by pegembara » Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:12 am

You don't become anything- not even an arahant. Even the thought that you are an arahant proves that you aren't!
"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

SarathW
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Re: You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

Post by SarathW » Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:41 am

Agree.
I understand that non-becoming is the Arahant.
The question is how do we learn if we read is what we already know?
What I am saying is when two people read the same Sutta, what each person understand is what s/he already know.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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cappuccino
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Re: You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

Post by cappuccino » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:26 am

SarathW wrote: So how you become an Arahant?
Silavant Sutta: Virtuous

chownah
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Re: You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

Post by chownah » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:29 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:41 am
Agree.
I understand that non-becoming is the Arahant.
The question is how do we learn if we read is what we already know?
What I am saying is when two people read the same Sutta, what each person understand is what s/he already know.
:shrug:
I think it is more like: What we already have experienced (what we already know) influences how we perceive in the present.....and the meaning we give to what we perceive in the present is formulated to a great degree by the context of what we have perceived and known in the past.

Knowledge builds on knowledge.....the newborn has little knowledge but the human mind starts with this little knowledge and builds new knowledge using that first little knowledge as a guide.....this keeps happening until approximately teen age when it seem that all knowledge goes out the window! :jumping:
chownah

SarathW
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Re: You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

Post by SarathW » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:50 am

that all knowledge goes out the window!
I know that knowledge did not go out of the window.
But I know what you mean.
So how did I learn that?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Alīno
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Re: You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

Post by Alīno » Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:14 am

There is no link between reading suttas and realising Arahantship
But there is a link with reading our minds and realising Arahantship

I think people loose their time...
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...

justindesilva
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Re: You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

Post by justindesilva » Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:47 am

Alīno wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:14 am
There is no link between reading suttas and realising Arahantship
But there is a link with reading our minds and realising Arahantship

I think people loose their time...
By reading the tripitaka one cannot overcome avidya. The only path ( ekayano maggo) to attain arhantship is to follow the noble eight fold path. By following the N8FP one can overcome the ten fetters to get rid of all desires.
One becomes a sotapanna by overcoming identity view, doubt in budda damma, and ascetic rituals,
One becomes a sakadagami by giving up sensual desires and ill will
One becomes an anagami & arhant by overcoming rebirth desires immaterial rebirth desires, conceit, restlessness and ignorance.
In such a manner one .becomes an ariya puggala who does not get a birth in samsara.
The only way to understand above factors or samyojana is only by understanding paticca samuppada along with a clear understanding of nama rupa ( SN12.2 along with samma ditthi sutta).
It is also necessary to understand that we are a cosmic process and we are bound to exist along with this process by clinging to so called desires said to be arising from salayatana and its clinging with our self identity.

SteRo
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Re: You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

Post by SteRo » Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:13 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:36 am
You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!
Since becoming is an effluent this seems to be a wrong view.

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Alīno
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Re: You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

Post by Alīno » Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:03 am

justindesilva wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:47 am
The only way to understand above factors or samyojana is only by understanding paticca samuppada along with a clear understanding of nama rupa ( SN12.2 along with samma ditthi sutta).
It is also necessary to understand that we are a cosmic process and we are bound to exist along with this process by clinging to so called desires said to be arising from salayatana and its clinging with our self identity.
:anjali:
Can we All apply necessary Effort in our mind process re-education and realise the Truth that is beyond the conditioned world :bow:
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...

SarathW
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Re: You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

Post by SarathW » Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:19 am

Can we All apply necessary Effort in our mind process re-education and realise the Truth that is beyond the conditioned world :bow:
"And, monks, as long as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-3


https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/3- ... at/5238/25
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

binocular
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Re: You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

Post by binocular » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:54 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:41 am
The question is how do we learn if we read is what we already know?
What I am saying is when two people read the same Sutta, what each person understand is what s/he already know.
It doesn't remain at that. When reading the Canon, new elements are added to one's background (or at least, this is the assumption, namely, that reading the suttas will leave some mark in one's mind). So that what was once new and foreign, becomes familiar, becomes the background. And then the new things that one engages in, appear against that new background, that new context.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

SarathW
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Re: You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

Post by SarathW » Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:14 pm

I found the following post about learning Dhamma:

In term of learning phase, there are three phases:
1. Pariyatti: learn the text
2. Patipatti: put into practice
3. Pativeda: come to realization

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=15134&p=218857&hil ... da#p218857
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

nmjojola
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Re: You have to be an Arahant to become an Arahant!!

Post by nmjojola » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:27 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:36 am
So how you become an Arahant?
You don't.

The dreamer doesn't wake up, a dreamer can't wake up because he's determined by the dream, he can only vanish when the dream does.

Dream = Wrong View = Puttjhana
Waking up = Right View = Sotapanna or higher

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