Having this simple and loosely defined model of the structure of concentration meditation I went to mn121 to see how the model could help in understanding it.....surprisingly I found that I really couldn't see that mn121 fit the model. First there is no explicit statement of choosing an object of meditation...I would have thought that it was "emptiness" but it seems more like the object of meditation keeps changing as if this sutta actually represents multiple presentations of the model....but this seems strange because there is no mention of how these "multiple" objects of meditation arose.....also, there is no talk about distracting thoughts except perhaps the thoughts associated with the previous modes of perception which are said to be not attended to.SteRo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:36 pmyou are dealing with expressions of speech very carefully, chownah.
Ok.chownah wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:44 pmSo..summary time. Note that I've added something in red at the end which we have not discussed but I think that you will agree with so please give it special attention to see if you agree or not. Here's the summary for what we've got so far:So...our description of the structure now might be that in concentration meditation one typically starts by choosing a sign (object of meditation) and then making the sign the object of awareness by focusing the mind so that it attends as nearly as possible to just that sign and nothing else. It happens that thoughts arise which are distracting and the distraction manifests when the sign is no longer the object of awareness (the distraction has distracted one from the sign)...in other words the mind has stopped attending to the sign and is now attending to some distraction which has now become the object of awareness. It should be noted that the distraction which has now become the object of awareness has NOT become the object of meditation usually but rather typically the mind has changed modes from concentrated awareness to some sort of internal dialogue. (This is the usual and typical scenario and I'm not wanting to rule out other possibilities.)
So, I'm sort of thinking that the model does not really work for mn121 unless perhaps we break it into several connected scenarios and even then the model seems be lacking in essential features and so it really falls way short of being useful as it stands I guess.
I'll do some research to see if I can come up with something to clarify this...I've got some ideas to check out and will post when I check them out.
If you have some ideas about how to proceed or what any of this means please bring it.