How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

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SarathW
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How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:32 pm

How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

What is the logic behind equating four Brahama Vihara's to Jhanas?

According to the following sutta:

Metta meditation = Rupavacara (material) Jhana
Karuna meditation = Infinity space
Muditha meditation = Infinity consciousness
Upekkha meditation = Nothingness

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.54/en/sujato
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Dhammanando
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Re: How four Brahama Viihara connected with the 8 Jhana?

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:43 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:32 pm
What is the logic behind equating four Brahama Vihara's to Jhanas?

(i) one who abides in lovingkindness can easily apply his mind to a beautiful colour kasiṇa and quickly attain the beautiful liberation (i.e., jhāna based on a colour kasiṇa);

(ii) one who abides in compassion recognizes the danger in form and thus develops the base of the infinity of space, which is the escape from form;

(iii) one who abides in altruistic joy apprehends the joyful consciousness of beings and thus easily enters the base of the infinity of consciousness;

(iv) one who abides in equanimity is skilled in diverting his mind from pleasure and pain, and thus can easily divert it to the absence of any concrete entity in the base of nothingness.

The above is Bhikkhu Bodhi's précis. For the full account see Path of Purification IX 120-123.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

SarathW
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Re: How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

Post by SarathW » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:31 pm

Thank you, Bhante.
Another interesting point is four Brhama Vihara to be practiced together with the seven awakening factors as per this Sutta. Hence four Brahma Vihara's can not be separated from four Jhana and the seven factors of enlightenment.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SteRo
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Re: How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

Post by SteRo » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:16 am

Acc. to Ven Gunaratana metta, karuna and mudita may serve as a basis for jhanas 1-3.

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DooDoot
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Re: How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:02 am

SteRo wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:16 am
.... metta, karuna and mudita may serve as a basis for jhanas 1-3.
Jhanas 2 - 3 have nothing that can be 'thinking' ('vitakka & vicara'), either gross or subtle. Therefore, how can metta, karuna and mudita serve as a basis for jhanas 2-3? Thank you
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Re: How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

Post by sentinel » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:08 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:02 am

Jhanas 2 - 3 have nothing that can be 'thinking' ('vitakka & vicara'), either gross or subtle. Therefore, how can metta, karuna and mudita serve as a basis for jhanas 2-3? Thank you
Why do you think jhana 2 have nothing to do with thinking ?
:coffee:

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Re: How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

Post by SteRo » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:11 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:02 am
SteRo wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:16 am
.... metta, karuna and mudita may serve as a basis for jhanas 1-3.
Jhanas 2 - 3 have nothing that can be 'thinking' ('vitakka & vicara'), either gross or subtle. Therefore, how can metta, karuna and mudita serve as a basis for jhanas 2-3? Thank you
As I have written "Acc. to Ven Gunaratana metta, karuna and mudita may serve as a basis for jhanas 1-3." you should ask Ven Gunaratana.

But I may also give you a hint through saying that "serve as a basis" should not be understood as "being the same".


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Re: How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:55 am

SteRo wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:11 am

As I have written "Acc. to Ven Gunaratana metta, karuna and mudita may serve as a basis for jhanas 1-3." you should ask Ven Gunaratana.
It would probably be easier & more proper if Ven Gunaratana was quoted from a book or video. Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

Post by Aniccato » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:28 am

Venerable Sir. Where in the Suttas does the Buddha advise to use Kasinas? Or is this purely commentary?
With Metta

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Re: How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

Post by justindesilva » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:20 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:55 am
SteRo wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:11 am

As I have written "Acc. to Ven Gunaratana metta, karuna and mudita may serve as a basis for jhanas 1-3." you should ask Ven Gunaratana.
It would probably be easier & more proper if Ven Gunaratana was quoted from a book or video. Regards
This is described on utube " what is jana by ven. Henepola Gunaratana". Somewhere in the middle of this sermon is explained that compassion is a factor in attaining jana.

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Re: How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

Post by SteRo » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:50 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:55 am
SteRo wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:11 am

As I have written "Acc. to Ven Gunaratana metta, karuna and mudita may serve as a basis for jhanas 1-3." you should ask Ven Gunaratana.
It would probably be easier & more proper if Ven Gunaratana was quoted from a book or video. Regards
Dear friend,

your reaoning has been
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:02 am
Jhanas 2 - 3 have nothing that can be 'thinking' ('vitakka & vicara'), either gross or subtle. Therefore, how can metta, karuna and mudita serve as a basis for jhanas 2-3? Thank you
but if that reasoning of yours would be valid then one could not say that the 1st jhana can serve as a basis for the 2nd jhana. But the 1st jhana can serve as a basis for the 2nd jhana although there is 'vitakka & vicara' in the 1st jhana but not in the 2nd jhana.

In the same way one can say that metta, karuna and mudita may serve as a basis for jhanas 1-3. Initial metta, karuna and mudita are not even the same as 1st jhana but only can serve as a basis for 1st jhana.

One might wonder why Ven Gunaratana does exclude the 4th jhana because if metta, karuna and mudita may serve as a basis for jhanas 1-3 and 3rd jhana may serve as a basis for 4th jhana then why doesn't he state that metta, karuna and mudita may serve as a basis for jhanas 1-4?
I do not know. It doesn't appear consistent to me why he excludes the 4th jhana but his table states that equanimity, the remaining Brahama Vihara, may serve as the basis for 4th jhana. But from that one might conclude that through equanimity one might 'jump' to 4th jhana leaving out jhanas 1-3 which doesn't appear consistent to me either.


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Re: How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:17 pm

Geonny wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:28 am
Venerable Sir. Where in the Suttas does the Buddha advise to use Kasinas? Or is this purely commentary?
The Suttas mention kasiṇas, but in a manner so terse and opaque that it's hard to understand what they're all about. The commentaries, especially the Visuddhimagga, are the source of the detailed description of how to use kasiṇas to develop jhāna.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

Aniccato
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Re: How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

Post by Aniccato » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:40 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:17 pm
Geonny wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:28 am
Venerable Sir. Where in the Suttas does the Buddha advise to use Kasinas? Or is this purely commentary?
The Suttas mention kasiṇas, but in a manner so terse and opaque that it's hard to understand what they're all about. The commentaries, especially the Visuddhimagga, are the source of the detailed description of how to use kasiṇas to develop jhāna.
Thank you Bhante. Could you please possibly point to the Suttas, in which they mention the kasinas even vaguely? Am curious. Thank you Venerable Dhammanando.
With Metta

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Re: How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:06 am

Geonny wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:40 pm
Bhante. Could you please possibly point to the Suttas, in which they mention the kasinas even vaguely?
DN 33 & 34
MN 77
AN 1, the Apara-accharāsaṅghātavagga
AN 10:25; 10:26; 10:29.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

Aniccato
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Re: How four Brahama Viihara connected with the Jhana?

Post by Aniccato » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:48 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:06 am
Geonny wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:40 pm
Bhante. Could you please possibly point to the Suttas, in which they mention the kasinas even vaguely?
DN 33 & 34
MN 77
AN 1, the Apara-accharāsaṅghātavagga
AN 10:25; 10:26; 10:29.
Thank you Bhante. I will read these tomorrow. Have a great night and thank you again.
With Metta

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