Time

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sentinel
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Time

Post by sentinel » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:26 pm

What did Buddha says about notion of time ?
By saying beginningless does it implied time ?
Is it not the concept of infinity is a mind construction ?
:coffee:

JohnK
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Re: Time

Post by JohnK » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:45 pm

Here's one thing that was said (Itivuttaka 63; the footnote is from Thanissaro Bhikkhu):
This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: “Monks, there are these three times. Which three? Past time, future time, present time. These are the three times.”

Perceiving in terms of signs, beings
take a stand on signs.
Not fully comprehending signs, they
come into the bonds
of death.

But fully comprehending signs, one
doesn’t construe a signifier.
Touching liberation with the heart,
the state of peace unsurpassed,
consummate in terms of signs,
peaceful,
delighting in the peaceful state,
judicious,
an attainer-of-wisdom
makes use of classifications
but can’t be classified.1

Note
1. At first glance, the verses here do not bear much relationship to the prose introduction. However, if they are viewed in the context of MN 2 (see the note to §16), their relationship becomes clear: the person who applies appropriate attention to the notion of past, present, and future time does not define him or herself in those terms, and so does not cling to any sense of self in those terms. Without clinging, one is liberated from birth and death. (boldface added)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]

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dhammacoustic
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Re: Time

Post by dhammacoustic » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:55 pm

sentinel wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:26 pm
What did Buddha says about notion of time ?
arising, decay and alteration.

uppado pannayati
vayo pannayati
thitassa annathattam pannayati
— AN 3.47
By saying beginningless does it implied time ?
time is not a unified-absolute, therefore beginnings are beginningless.
Is it not the concept of infinity is a mind construction ?
there is no singular, infinite time. time means existence, and <an existence> is not infinite.
Last edited by dhammacoustic on Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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cappuccino
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Re: Time

Post by cappuccino » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:21 pm

"Once, monks, there was a teacher named Araka . . . He had many hundreds of students and he taught them the Dhamma in this way:

'Next to nothing, brahmans, is the life of human beings — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs.

"Now at that time, monks, the human life span was 60,000 years
Arakenanusasani Sutta: Araka's Teaching

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SDC
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Re: Time

Post by SDC » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:14 pm

Time is experienced timelessly. In every respect, it is a hierarchy that can only be attended to because it is there in its entirety to be attended to in various ways. No matter how underlying time is assumed to be, no matter how many layers deep it goes, you are attending something that is assumed to be there - and it can be attended to as such. Give it some thought, what do you see when you think about time. You see perhaps a line or a ribbon or some sort of structure that represents temporal distance - past in one direction, future in the other, both going out from a point of 'present'. The tendency is, however, for people to assume "beyond" these basic notions towards some other dimension of time that they don't understand. But even that "other dimension that they don't understand" has some representation - it can be attended to because the assumption that it applies to "you" gives it a place of significance.

In terms of infinity, there is no limit to how far the assumption of time can go, and the only assurance to be taken from that infinity is that you can always add to it - and if you can always add to it, there is no permanent ground to be found. It doesn't have a starting point. The issue is in the embedded assumption that there is ground somewhere, and hierarchically speaking, the entire notion of Self is bound up right there in that notion. The whole thing is taken as law, and therefore it is only within that law that people search in vain for both the source of their being, and an escape from the associated suffering. This is precisely that interplay between avija and sankhara, a tussle within which there is that continuous extension of one's existence into parts unknown - towards a source they know nothing about, so what they do is essentially protect the direction towards which they believe the source to be. Does anyone recall the sutta about how rain soaks into what is covered, and not into what is uncovered? The belief in Self, belief in that ground, is the very coverage that gets soaked and burdens the experience with an existence that is somehow everywhere and nowhere.

That is why the Buddha talks in terms of appropriate attention. Appropriate in the sense that, if a thing is there to be attended to at all - which time most definitely is - one should not take its implications for granted without question - not grasp at its signs and features for knowledge. So yes, time is a thing that can be attended to. Time is there. But if one believes themselves enveloped within it, traveling through it, rather than merely being able to attend to it, they are bound to the suffering that comes with associating with its direction. And where does it go? When does it end for you right now? At your death. The Rohitassa sutta spells this out as plain as day: you cannot go through space and time to find the release from suffering.

So the Buddha says, why not leave that direction where it is because there is something more fundamental in terms of your suffering, and what is more fundamental is that which binds you to that fate: the assumption that the direction belongs to you in the first place.

form
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Re: Time

Post by form » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:18 pm

Time is conditioned.

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zerotime
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Re: Time

Post by zerotime » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:36 pm

JohnK wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:45 pm
Here's one thing that was said (Itivuttaka 63; the footnote is from Thanissaro Bhikkhu):
these verses are very deep and translations in Internet are poor to get the sense in most cases including those western languages appearing inside SuttaCentral.


The best translation I have found is here, inside "Papañca": https://pali-glossary.github.io/content ... l#_papañca

(Patiṭṭhitā: entrenched)

Beings who perceive [only] what can be expressed and are entrenched in what can be expressed, not profoundly understanding what is expressed, they come under the yoke of death;

Akkheyyasaññino sattā akkheyyasmiṃ patiṭṭhitā.
Akkheyyaṃ apariññāya yogamāyanti maccuno.


But if one profoundly understands what can be expressed, and does not think 'I am the expressor,' the mind’s liberation is achieved, the unsurpassed Peaceful State.

Akkheyyañca pariññāya akkhātāraṃ na maññati
Phūṭṭho vimokkho manasā santipadamanuttaraṃ.


- It.53


this is closer to the real sense

SarathW
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Re: Time

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:58 pm

Anicca is the closest term for time.
If there is no change there is no time.
The notion of time is a mind made thing like Souls.
That is why each person perceive time differently.
However time has a practical application in conventional terms (conditioned reality).
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

JohnK
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Re: Time

Post by JohnK » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:24 am

zerotime wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:36 pm
JohnK wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:45 pm
Here's one thing that was said (Itivuttaka 63; the footnote is from Thanissaro Bhikkhu):
these verses are very deep and translations in Internet are poor...
Beings who perceive [only] what can be expressed and are entrenched in what can be expressed, not profoundly understanding what is expressed, they come under the yoke of death

But if one profoundly understands what can be expressed, and does not think 'I am the expressor,' the mind’s liberation is achieved, the unsurpassed Peaceful State.
...
this is closer to the real sense
Thank you for the alternative translation.
And thank you for the website (now bookmarked).
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]

chownah
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Re: Time

Post by chownah » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:38 am

sentinel wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:26 pm
What did Buddha says about notion of time ?
By saying beginningless does it implied time ?
Is it not the concept of infinity is a mind construction ?
Perhaps if search your favorite sutta site and search for terms relating to time like past, present, future, infinite etc. (one at a time I guess, maybe in combinations) you could find something of interest.
chownah

justindesilva
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Re: Time

Post by justindesilva » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:12 am

chownah wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:38 am
sentinel wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:26 pm
What did Buddha says about notion of time ?
By saying beginningless does it implied time ?
Is it not the concept of infinity is a mind construction ?
Perhaps if search your favorite sutta site and search for terms relating to time like past, present, future, infinite etc. (one at a time I guess, maybe in combinations) you could find something of interest.
chownah
Agganna sutta explains the beginnings in evolution.
It explains time in development of klesha which makes life of beings difficult with suffering relative to citta or mind. Paticca samuppada is also categorised in to past present and future.
With the existence of 31 planes of realms it is said that beings in each realm experience different relativities of time. To a person on this earth 100000 years in this world is relatively a matter of seconds to a person in a heaven. Therefore time is a relative event of the mind or citta.
In Mapunnabhyi Sutta of the Anguttara Nikaya Budda spoke of his past lives giving reference to long time frames (eons) in heavens .

sentinel
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Re: Time

Post by sentinel » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:10 am

I read about a Mahayana monk whom absorbed in jhana for 7 days appear like a while has no sense of time .
So , life span is not time . It is the experiences that give rise to sense of continuous . Then the clock is just an indicator or pointer . Infinity is time and space , yet space is also exists in contrast with matter .
:coffee:

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Bundokji
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Re: Time

Post by Bundokji » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:55 am

SDC wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:14 pm
In terms of infinity, there is no limit to how far the assumption of time can go, and the only assurance to be taken from that infinity is that you can always add to it - and if you can always add to it, there is no permanent ground to be found. It doesn't have a starting point. The issue is in the embedded assumption that there is ground somewhere, and hierarchically speaking, the entire notion of Self is bound up right there in that notion. The whole thing is taken as law, and therefore it is only within that law that people search in vain for both the source of their being, and an escape from the associated suffering. This is precisely that interplay between avija and sankhara, a tussle within which there is that continuous extension of one's existence into parts unknown - towards a source they know nothing about, so what they do is essentially protect the direction towards which they believe the source to be. Does anyone recall the sutta about how rain soaks into what is covered, and not into what is uncovered? The belief in Self, belief in that ground, is the very coverage that gets soaked and burdens the experience with an existence that is somehow everywhere and nowhere.
I think what is illusive and a bit challenging is how to understand the terms "groundless" or "assumption" in your post. If an assumption is so persistent to the extent that it becomes a law, then is there a basis (or ground) to cal it an assumption?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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SDC
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Re: Time

Post by SDC » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:38 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:55 am
I think what is illusive and a bit challenging is how to understand the terms "groundless" or "assumption" in your post. If an assumption is so persistent to the extent that it becomes a law, then is there a basis (or ground) to cal it an assumption?
Think about it like this, if you've never had cause to think otherwise, the repetition would only serve to reinforce the notion that it is the ground. And not being known any other way, you just keep taking it up for what it is. So you are absolutely correct - because when there is no awareness of it, even as a possibility, the whole thing sits there seemingly permanent, with ground. You wake up, you do things, you find things, you enjoy some and don't enjoy others. You live with the grain and the routine holds the whole thing together. Even if you question it, you do so "routinely".

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Bundokji
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Re: Time

Post by Bundokji » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:47 pm

SDC wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:38 pm
Think about it like this, if you've never had cause to think otherwise, the repetition would only serve to reinforce the notion that it is the ground. And not being known any other way, you just keep taking it up for what it is. So you are absolutely correct - because when there is no awareness of it, even as a possibility, the whole thing sits there seemingly permanent, with ground. You wake up, you do things, you find things, you enjoy some and don't enjoy others. You live with the grain and the routine holds the whole thing together. Even if you question it, you do so "routinely".
No wonder we call it a self. It is quite self-fulfilling :tongue:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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