Existence and bhava

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
sentinel
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Existence and bhava

Post by sentinel » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:57 am

Does the existence meaning as alive and existing carry same meaning as bhava or becoming or continuation ?
What then is No coming back to renewed existence ? Not being Alive and Not Existing ?
Not Existing appear to be a kind of annihilation .


“It is because of ignorance, this great delusion,
that one has wandered on for so long.
But those beings who have gained clear knowledge
do not come back to renewed existence.
Sn730
:coffee:

SteRo
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Re: Existence and bhava

Post by SteRo » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:35 am

sentinel wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:57 am
Does the existence meaning as alive and existing carry same meaning as bhava or becoming or continuation ?
"bhava or becoming" seem to be connected with self identity views. "Existence" might be understood as the mere experience of being alive which is not necessarily connected with self identity views.
sentinel wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:57 am
What then is No coming back to renewed existence ? Not being Alive and Not Existing ?
Cessation of the experience of 'having been born' and 'being alive' and 'subject to death'.
sentinel wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:57 am
Not Existing appear to be a kind of annihilation .
From my perspective if 'existing' is interpreted from a perspective of experience such ontological connotations can be avoided. But then ... the processing of language seems to be very different in different individuals.

:anjali:

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Alīno
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Re: Existence and bhava

Post by Alīno » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:36 am

Only conditioned things can come to an end or be annihilated, all what is conditioned is a burden, hard to bear, so when the burden is lay down, only dukkha ceases... And what is dukkha? Form feeling perception mental formation and sense consciousness, 6 senses and all information is dukkha... What is information? Duality 1 and 0 (..10100101..) is information. Conceit "iam" is born from this duality. With abandoning of conceit "iam" there is cessation of information, cessation of dukkha.
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...

Dinsdale
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Re: Existence and bhava

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:07 am

The nidana "definition" for bhava in SN12.2 describes existence in the 3 realms, dependent on which there is (physical) birth, aging and death. Unfortunately there is no consensus about what this actually means, just a lot of theories.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
Buddha save me from new-agers!

SteRo
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Re: Existence and bhava

Post by SteRo » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:13 am

What "existence in the 3 realms" means can be experienced through the rupa and arupa jhanas and sense-sphere existence is what we are experiencing currently.

Dinsdale
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Re: Existence and bhava

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:35 am

SteRo wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:13 am
What "existence in the 3 realms" means can be experienced through the rupa and arupa jhanas and sense-sphere existence is what we are experiencing currently.
So with that interpretation, how do (physical) birth, aging and death arise in dependence upon sense-experience and the jhanas?

And how do the jhanas arise in dependence upon the four types of clinging (the previous nidana)?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

SteRo
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Re: Existence and bhava

Post by SteRo » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:54 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:35 am
SteRo wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:13 am
What "existence in the 3 realms" means can be experienced through the rupa and arupa jhanas and sense-sphere existence is what we are experiencing currently.
So with that interpretation, how do (physical) birth, aging and death arise in dependence upon sense-experience and the jhanas?
you must not use the term jhanas as you do here. you should speak of the form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence.
the wording of your question does not make sense.
your question should read: how does birth, aging and death arise in sense-sphere, form-sphere and formless-sphere?

To that I would answer: This is decribed in DO-sutta. However the Buddha taught DO to humans therefore it is tailored to the experience in sense-sphere.
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:35 am
And how do the jhanas arise in dependence upon the four types of clinging (the previous nidana)?
Again, jhanas are concentrations not existences. But the experiences in jhanas correspond to experiences in form-sphere and formless-sphere.

Dinsdale
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Re: Existence and bhava

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:30 pm

SteRo wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:54 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:35 am
SteRo wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:13 am
What "existence in the 3 realms" means can be experienced through the rupa and arupa jhanas and sense-sphere existence is what we are experiencing currently.
So with that interpretation, how do (physical) birth, aging and death arise in dependence upon sense-experience and the jhanas?
you must not use the term jhanas as you do here. you should speak of the form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence.
the wording of your question does not make sense.
your question should read: how does birth, aging and death arise in sense-sphere, form-sphere and formless-sphere?

To that I would answer: This is decribed in DO-sutta. However the Buddha taught DO to humans therefore it is tailored to the experience in sense-sphere.
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:35 am
And how do the jhanas arise in dependence upon the four types of clinging (the previous nidana)?
Again, jhanas are concentrations not existences. But the experiences in jhanas correspond to experiences in form-sphere and formless-sphere.
I'm happy to use your jargon. So how do DO (physical) birth, aging and death arise in dependence on the 3 spheres?
And how does clinging lead to the 3 spheres?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Srilankaputra
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Re: Existence and bhava

Post by Srilankaputra » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:54 pm

See this wide world subject to ignorance.
Which is;
which delights to be never freed from being.
Yet whatever the kinds of being,
In any way. Any where
All are impermanent
Haunted by pain
Inseparable from change.

So when a man sees thus
Whith right understanding how it is
His craving for being is abandoned
And no more expectantly relishes non-being
That is the utter exhaustion of all craving
That is the remaindelwss fading
Cessation
Nettippakarana
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

Dinsdale
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Re: Existence and bhava

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:04 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:54 pm
See this wide world subject to ignorance.
Which is;
which delights to be never freed from being.
Yet whatever the kinds of being,
In any way. Any where
All are impermanent
Haunted by pain
Inseparable from change.

So when a man sees thus
Whith right understanding how it is
His craving for being is abandoned
And no more expectantly relishes non-being
That is the utter exhaustion of all craving
That is the remaindelwss fading
Cessation
Nettippakarana
So how does this answer the question?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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SDC
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Re: Existence and bhava

Post by SDC » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:55 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:30 pm
I'm happy to use your jargon.
If I have time later I'll quote some Helmholtz so you'll feel more comfortable. ;)

pegembara
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Re: Existence and bhava

Post by pegembara » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:49 am

sentinel wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:57 am
Does the existence meaning as alive and existing carry same meaning as bhava or becoming or continuation ?
What then is No coming back to renewed existence ? Not being Alive and Not Existing ?
Not Existing appear to be a kind of annihilation .


“It is because of ignorance, this great delusion,
that one has wandered on for so long.
But those beings who have gained clear knowledge
do not come back to renewed existence.
Sn730
There are experiences and the cessation of experience which isn't annihilation after the cycle of dependent origination has been already broken.
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

justindesilva
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Re: Existence and bhava

Post by justindesilva » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:49 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:07 am
The nidana "definition" for bhava in SN12.2 describes existence in the 3 realms, dependent on which there is (physical) birth, aging and death. Unfortunately there is no consensus about what this actually means, just a lot of theories.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
Rev Punnaji explains existence from SN12.2 as
Existence is personalisation (upadana) of desires.
Tanha (sensual desires) is personalised ( upadana) which arises existence that leads to bhava. Bhava which leads to jathi detailed as female or male and to which type of humanity. Vibhanga sutta explain that by cessation of each condition the next is dissolved with the effect of cessation of upadana ( personalisation ) of tanha ceases. With the non existence of tanha , nirvana or non existence ( depersonalisation) takes place.

sentinel
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Re: Existence and bhava

Post by sentinel » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:19 am

pegembara wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:49 am

Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
All experience extinguished understandable but Nibbana element with No residue is but some vague phrase , it does not elucidate anything .
:coffee:

pegembara
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Re: Existence and bhava

Post by pegembara » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:15 am

sentinel wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:19 am
pegembara wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:49 am

Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
All experience extinguished understandable but Nibbana element with No residue is but some vague phrase , it does not elucidate anything .
Doesn't it? Nibbana means cooling off or extinguishment.
We all know what happens when a fire goes out. The flames die down and the fire is gone for good. So when we first learn that the name for the goal of Buddhist practice, nibbana (nirvana), literally means the extinguishing of a fire, it's hard to imagine a deadlier image for a spiritual goal: utter annihilation. It turns out, though, that this reading of the concept is a mistake in translation, not so much of a word as of an image. What did an extinguished fire represent to the Indians of the Buddha's day? Anything but annihilation.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... bbana.html
The second stage of the attainment of Nibbana is called the Nibbana element without a residue remaining. This is the element of Nibbana attained by an Arahant with his passing away, with the breakup of his body, what we conventionally call death.
The passing away of an Arahant is the final and complete passing out from conditioned existence. It does not lead to a new birth. In his own experience, the Arahant sees only the cessation of a process, not the death of a self. The experience for him is without subjective significance, without reference to 'Me or Mine'. At this stage the residue of the five aggregates comes to an end.

https://www.piandeiciliegi.it/en/buddhi ... bbana.html
The Buddha illustrates this with the example of a fire. Suppose there is a fire, burning in dependence on fuel, the sticks and logs. Now if the fire does not get any further fuel, when it uses up the old fuel, then it goes out. Suppose we ask, when the fire goes out; where did it go? Did it go to the North? To the South? To the East? To the West? The answer to this is that none of these questions apply. All of these are inapplicable. The fire has simply gone out.
"Those wise ones get extinguished even like this lamp."
"Just as an oil lamp burns in dependence on oil & wick; and from the termination of the oil & wick — and from not being provided any other sustenance — it goes out unnourished; even so, when sensing a feeling limited to the body, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' One discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'
The eternalists, overcome by the craving for existence, thought that there is some permanent essence in existence as a reality. But what had the Buddha to say about existence? He said that what is true for the fire is true for existence as well. That is to say that existence is dependent on grasping. So long as there is a grasping, there is an existence.
B Nanananda
Last edited by pegembara on Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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