Monastics and suicide

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Dhammanando
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:16 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:15 am
Bhante , what would be the next destination for an ordinary person (such as feeling hopeless in life) to commit suicide ?
That someone dies by their own hand doesn't allow us to make any particular determination as to what their destination is likely to be. Like anyone else, if they've performed a weighty kamma at some time in their life, then the destination will be determined by that. If not, then it might be determined by death-proximate kamma. If not, then by habitual kamma. If not, then by reserve kamma.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by sentinel » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:28 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:16 pm
If not, then it might be determined by death-proximate kamma. If not, then by habitual kamma. If not, then by reserve kamma.
What is reserve karma ? In Pali is what ?
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” -Buddha

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:32 pm

form wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:11 pm
thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:05 pm
form wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:03 pm


The bigger the gap the more crazy is the person. Dhamma is about ultimate reality, so there is overlapping.
I’m not trying to be difficult, but your gap analogy, I’m not following it.
https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/20-cog ... fe-0407154
Isn’t this just the habit pattern of the mind we are trying to end?

thepea
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by thepea » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:34 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:28 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:16 pm
If not, then it might be determined by death-proximate kamma. If not, then by habitual kamma. If not, then by reserve kamma.
What is reserve karma ? In Pali is what ?
Sankhara

form
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by form » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:44 pm

thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:32 pm
form wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:11 pm
thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:05 pm

I’m not trying to be difficult, but your gap analogy, I’m not following it.
https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/20-cog ... fe-0407154
Isn’t this just the habit pattern of the mind we are trying to end?
If u observe your own experience or those u know, u may see certain times it gets out if control. Sometime it gets better, in worst case it goes totally out of control and never come back to norm.

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:49 pm

form wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:44 pm
thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:32 pm
Isn’t this just the habit pattern of the mind we are trying to end?
If u observe your own experience or those u know, u may see certain times it gets out if control. Sometime it gets better, in worst case it goes totally out of control and never come back to norm.
That does not fit with dhamma and impermanence, no time in hell is permanent. It is this identification(common dysfunction) with thought-formation which causes misery, but it does not last forever. It ends the trouble is we do not look at it (present) we stay in thought (past and future).
Some people have mental disorder preventing them from practicing dhamma and can defenitly cause suicide but not all who committ suicide have a mental disorder preventing them from seeing past misery. They are simply just rolling in this and desire release.

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Dhammanando
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:08 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:28 pm
What is reserve karma ? In Pali is what ?
Kaṭattā kamma.

In the Abhidhammic classification of the types of kamma "reserve kamma" is a catch-all term for any unripened kamma (whether of the present life or a former one) that is strong enough to determine a being’s rebirth, while being weaker than weighty, death-proximate or habitual kamma. As such, reserve kamma will determine a being’s next birth only if there are no unripened kammas of the other three types.

In the case of humans, it’s said to be common for reserve kamma to determine the rebirth of those who die in the womb or early infancy. It’s less likely to be the case with those who live to maturity, for most of us, even if we don’t do anything terribly weighty, will at least accumulate a lot of habitual kamma of one sort or another, according to how we most typically and commonly conduct ourselves.


Here’s Bhikkhu Bodhi’s explanation of the four types from the Manual of Abhidhamma:
§19 By Order of Ripening

ll. With respect to the order in which the effect of kamma takes place, there are four kinds of kamma, namely:

(i) weighty kamma;
(ii) death-proximate kamma;
(iii) habitual kamma; and
(iv) reserve kamma.

Guide to §19
The order in which the effect of kamma takes place:


This section concerns the order of precedence among different kammas in taking on the role of generating rebirth-linking in the next existence.

Weighty (garuka) kamma is kamma of such powerful moral weight that it cannot be replaced by any other kamma as the determinant of rebirth. On the wholesome side, this kamma is the attainment of the jhānas. On the unwholesome side, it is the five heinous crimes together with a fixed wrong view that denies the basis for morality. The five heinous crimes (anantariyakamma) are: parricide, matricide, the murder of an Arahant, the wounding of a Buddha, and maliciously creating a schism in the Sangha. If someone were to develop the jhānas and later were to commit one of the heinous crimes, his good kamma would be obliterated by the evil deed, and the latter would generate rebirth into a state of misery. For example, the Buddha's ambitious cousin Devadatta lost his psychic powers and was reborn in hell for wounding the Buddha and causing a schism in the Sangha. But if someone were first to commit one of the heinous crimes, he could not later reach a sublime or supramundane attainment, because the evil kamma would create an insurmountable obstruction. Thus King Ajātasattu, while listening to the Buddha speak the Sāmaññaphala Sutta, the Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship, had all the other conditions for reaching stream-entry; but because he had killed his father, King Bimbisāra, he could not attain the path and fruit.

Death-proximate (āsanna) kamma is a potent kamma remembered or done shortly before death, that is, immediately prior to the last javana process. If a person of bad character remembers a good deed he has done, or performs a good deed just before dying, he may receive a fortunate rebirth; and conversely, if a good person dwells on an evil deed done earlier, or performs an evil deed just before dying, he may undergo an unhappy rebirth. For this reason in Buddhist countries it is customary to remind a dying person of his good deeds or to urge him to arouse good thoughts during the last moments of his life.

When there is no weighty kamma, and a potent death-proximate kamma is performed, this kamma will generally take on the role of generating rebirth. This does not mean that a person will escape the fruits of the other good and bad deeds he has committed during the course of life. When they meet with conditions, these kammas too will produce their due results.

Habitual (āciṇṇa) kamma is a deed that one habitually performs, either good or bad. In the absence of weighty kamma and a potent death-proximate kamma, this type of kamma generally assumes the rebirth-generative function.

Reserve (kaṭattā) kamma is any other deed, not included in the three aforementioned categories, which is potent enough to take on the role of generating rebirth. This type of kamma becomes operative when there is no kamma of the other three types to exercise this function.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

SarathW
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by SarathW » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:03 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:42 am
SarathW wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:44 am
Can someone give the quote from Vinaya please?
What I can recall is, Ven. Dhammanado said it is not supported in Tipitaka.
I may be wrong.
viewtopic.php?t=23927&start=195#p343438

viewtopic.php?t=25231&start=140#p366282
Thank you, Bhante.
This is nothing to do with suicide, in my opinion.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

thepea
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by thepea » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:05 pm

robertk wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:47 am
An arahat would never attempt suicide. He has no aversion .
So all the arahants in the suttas who committed suicide attained arahantship after the act but before death?

This seems very unlikely, are there any suttas where the arahant commits the act?

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robertk
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by robertk » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:47 pm

thepea wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:05 pm
robertk wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:47 am
An arahat would never attempt suicide. He has no aversion .
So all the arahants in the suttas who committed suicide attained arahantship after the act but before death?
?
yes.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35158

thepea
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by thepea » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:44 pm

robertk wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:47 pm
thepea wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:05 pm
robertk wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:47 am
An arahat would never attempt suicide. He has no aversion .
So all the arahants in the suttas who committed suicide attained arahantship after the act but before death?
?
yes.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35158
Seems like a lot of translation issues.
So it’s inconclusive?

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cappuccino
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by cappuccino » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:31 pm

thepea wrote: So all the arahants in the suttas who committed suicide attained arahantship after the act but before death?
why do you care?

thepea
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by thepea » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:53 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:31 pm
thepea wrote: So all the arahants in the suttas who committed suicide attained arahantship after the act but before death?
why do you care?
Where does that question come from?

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cappuccino
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by cappuccino » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:55 pm

thepea wrote:
cappuccino wrote:
thepea wrote: So all the arahants in the suttas who committed suicide attained arahantship after the act but before death?
why do you care?
Where does that question come from?
the heedless are as if dead already

thepea
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by thepea » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:59 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:55 pm
thepea wrote:
cappuccino wrote:

why do you care?
Where does that question come from?
the heedless are as if dead already
Your being reckless???

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