Monastics and suicide

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by SarathW » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:35 am

By committing suicide, a bhikkhu commits pārājika 3 and thus passes away as a lay man.
Is this phrase from vinaya pitaka?
Are suicide mean taking own life?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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retrofuturist
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:49 am

Greetings Sarath,

Sounds wrong. What about Channa?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:09 am

sentinel wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:51 am
Bhante , what is the difference between committing suicide and Euthanasia ?
Suicide is the action of killing oneself; euthanasia is the practice of assisting in the suicide of another. The Vinaya text

Dhammadāna.org is plainly wrong here. This is what it says in the Buddhist Monastic Code:
The Pārājika offence is for killing a human being aside from oneself. A bhikkhu who attempts suicide incurs a Dukkaṭa.
The Pali text says:
"Yo pana bhikkhu sañcicca manussaviggahaṃ jīvitā voropeyya,sattahārakaṃ vāssa pariyeseyya, maraṇavaṇṇaṃ vā saṃvaṇṇayya, maraṇāya vā samādapeyya, " ambo purisa kiṃ tuyhiminā dujjīvitena mataṃ te jīvitā seyyo " ti, iti cittamano cittasiṅkappo anekapariyayena maraṇavaṇṇaṃ vā saṃvaṇṇayya, maraṇāya vā samādapeyya, ayampi pārājiko hoti asaṃvāso."
1. Deprives of life (jīvitā voropeyya)
2. Brings a weapon (sattahārakaṃ vāssa pariyeseyya) (includes poison, or any other thing by means of which someone can commit suicide)
3. Speak in praise of death (maraṇavaṇṇaṃ vā saṃvaṇṇayya)
4. Urges one to die (maraṇāya vā samādapeyya) with words such as, “Good man, what this miserable life to you, death is better than living like this.”
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thepea
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by thepea » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:39 am

DNS wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:11 am
thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:51 am
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:23 pm
Committing suicide is not an offence of defeat. If one fails, it is an offence of wrong-doing. Euthanasia is an offence of defeat.
So, if an arahant attempts to commit suicide it is an offense of wrong doing. How would the arahant be reprimanded for this?
If successful, I imagine they would be celebrated for their end to samsara.
Seems odd, or, if an arahant attempts suicide is it not a wrong doing?
An arahant would not be reprimanded because an arahant would not attempt suicide, as noted by robert above. Bhikkhu Pesala is referring to a bhikkhu who is not an arahant.
But were there not many suttas of these monastics committing suicide. Or were they laypersons? I believe they were referred to as arahants if I recall.

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Dhammanando
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:42 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:44 am
Can someone give the quote from Vinaya please?
What I can recall is, Ven. Dhammanado said it is not supported in Tipitaka.
I may be wrong.
viewtopic.php?t=23927&start=195#p343438

viewtopic.php?t=25231&start=140#p366282
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
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Re: In remembrance of Bhikkhu Samahita

Post by sentinel » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:15 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:42 am
.....
Bhante , what would be the next destination for an ordinary person (such as feeling hopeless in life) to commit suicide ?
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” -Buddha

form
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by form » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:23 am

Most modern people that commit suicide has mental disorder. As for the case in the sutta, we won't know what really happen.

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:23 pm

form wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:23 am
Most modern people that commit suicide has mental disorder. As for the case in the sutta, we won't know what really happen.
Not sure if that is true, many people who fail at committing suicide go on to work and live very functional lives. Some even reach enlightenment.
Seems a bit unjust to lable as a mental disorder.
Are they not merely overwhelmed by suffering?

form
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by form » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:26 pm

thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:23 pm
form wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:23 am
Most modern people that commit suicide has mental disorder. As for the case in the sutta, we won't know what really happen.
Not sure if that is true, many people who fail at committing suicide go on to work and live very functional lives. Some even reach enlightenment.
Seems a bit unjust to lable as a mental disorder.
Are they not merely overwhelmed by suffering?
From what I observed they are already in a serious stage of reality distortion by the time they take their own live. And the process developed slowly.

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:27 pm

form wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:26 pm
thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:23 pm
form wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:23 am
Most modern people that commit suicide has mental disorder. As for the case in the sutta, we won't know what really happen.
Not sure if that is true, many people who fail at committing suicide go on to work and live very functional lives. Some even reach enlightenment.
Seems a bit unjust to lable as a mental disorder.
Are they not merely overwhelmed by suffering?
From what I observed they are already in a serious stage of reality distortion by the time they take their own live. And the process developed slowly.
What reality distortion?

form
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by form » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:31 pm

thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:27 pm
form wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:26 pm
thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:23 pm


Not sure if that is true, many people who fail at committing suicide go on to work and live very functional lives. Some even reach enlightenment.
Seems a bit unjust to lable as a mental disorder.
Are they not merely overwhelmed by suffering?
From what I observed they are already in a serious stage of reality distortion by the time they take their own live. And the process developed slowly.
What reality distortion?
The gap between what actually happened and what they perceived.

thepea
Posts: 1500
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:45 pm

form wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:31 pm
thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:27 pm
form wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:26 pm


From what I observed they are already in a serious stage of reality distortion by the time they take their own live. And the process developed slowly.
What reality distortion?
The gap between what actually happened and what they perceived.
Expand.

form
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by form » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:03 pm

thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:45 pm
form wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:31 pm
thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:27 pm

What reality distortion?
The gap between what actually happened and what they perceived.
Expand.
The bigger the gap the more crazy is the person. Dhamma is about ultimate reality, so there is overlapping.

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:05 pm

form wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:03 pm
thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:45 pm
form wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:31 pm


The gap between what actually happened and what they perceived.
Expand.
The bigger the gap the more crazy is the person. Dhamma is about ultimate reality, so there is overlapping.
I’m not trying to be difficult, but your gap analogy, I’m not following it.

form
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by form » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:11 pm

thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:05 pm
form wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:03 pm
thepea wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:45 pm

Expand.
The bigger the gap the more crazy is the person. Dhamma is about ultimate reality, so there is overlapping.
I’m not trying to be difficult, but your gap analogy, I’m not following it.
https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/20-cog ... fe-0407154

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