Monastics and suicide

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by DooDoot » Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:35 am

thepea wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:58 pm
I’m skeptical of this Channa story, the business of thus monk having no attainments
The sutta says Channa had attainments, as follows:
“Reverend Sāriputta, after seeing cessation, after directly knowing cessation in these things I regard them in this way: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self’.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn144/en/sujato
thepea wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:58 pm
while the blood and life running from his body attaining arahantship. Again I’m skeptical.
Sure. I’m skeptical about this also but this is not written in the suttas but is an interpretation from commentary.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Akashad
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by Akashad » Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:09 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:49 pm
thepea wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:46 pm
I’m asking whether the bhante was confused with his practice, and had maybe fallen into a pitfall?
There's one person to ask this, but he's not here anymore.
Yes thepea you will have to ask bhante samahita that.none of us can answer why he took his own life.i am personally feeling really down these last few days thinking about it.

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:45 pm

Akashad wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:09 am
binocular wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:49 pm
thepea wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:46 pm
I’m asking whether the bhante was confused with his practice, and had maybe fallen into a pitfall?
There's one person to ask this, but he's not here anymore.
Yes thepea you will have to ask bhante samahita that.none of us can answer why he took his own life.i am personally feeling really down these last few days thinking about it.
Not true, a teacher. a student or co meditator who had contact with him and his day to day mindset could have insight into this. As an example when serving on retreats and working with groups of meditators and teachers often things go wrong you get to see how others respond and handle these situations. You get to know people more intimately and can assume how they react in life is how they will react in meditation.

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:55 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:35 am
thepea wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:58 pm
I’m skeptical of this Channa story, the business of thus monk having no attainments
The sutta says Channa had attainments, as follows:
“Reverend Sāriputta, after seeing cessation, after directly knowing cessation in these things I regard them in this way: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self’.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn144/en/sujato
thepea wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:58 pm
while the blood and life running from his body attaining arahantship. Again I’m skeptical.
Sure. I’m skeptical about this also but this is not written in the suttas but is an interpretation from commentary.
I am taught that when the path is developed one sees annicca at a level where they are no longer to be overwhelmed by the bodily sensation.
I’m skeptical that this monk had not reached this level in the initial part of the sutra, slit his wrists in aversion to this suffering and then becomes an arahant while dying.
Seems like a monastic coverup as it does not resonate with me as logical. I don’t trust that the sutras have been translated 100% accurately. I feel some are placed afterwards to make acceptions for some actions.

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SDC
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by SDC » Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:59 pm

thepea wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:45 pm
Not true, a teacher. a student or co meditator who had contact with him and his day to day mindset could have insight into this.
So you thought that speculating publicly about it for the last two weeks was the best way to get in touch with someone who had close contact with Ven. S? Typically people don't sign onto forums and discuss someone's private life after they've committed suicide, so I seriously doubt you're going to get that information.

Although you have ignored a whole post of mine, I'm just going to ask you one thing that you also ignored from an earlier post. What do you think qualifies you to assess and judge what has happened to Ven. S?

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:26 pm

SarathW wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:58 am
...
...
Let alone the destination I have not attain even first Jhana yet.
But I teach people Nirodha Samapatthi.
:mrgreen:
:goodpost:
:heart:
.


🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐

Self ...
  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

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Akashad
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by Akashad » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:05 pm

thepea wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:45 pm
Akashad wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:09 am
binocular wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:49 pm

There's one person to ask this, but he's not here anymore.
Yes thepea you will have to ask bhante samahita that.none of us can answer why he took his own life.i am personally feeling really down these last few days thinking about it.
Not true, a teacher. a student or co meditator who had contact with him and his day to day mindset could have insight into this. As an example when serving on retreats and working with groups of meditators and teachers often things go wrong you get to see how others respond and handle these situations. You get to know people more intimately and can assume how they react in life is how they will react in meditation.
He is human like us.Teaching the dhamma doesn't make one immune to suffering.
Last edited by Akashad on Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Idappaccayata
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by Idappaccayata » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:10 pm

SDC wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:59 pm
thepea wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:45 pm
Not true, a teacher. a student or co meditator who had contact with him and his day to day mindset could have insight into this.
So you thought that speculating publicly about it for the last two weeks was the best way to get in touch with someone who had close contact with Ven. S? Typically people don't sign onto forums and discuss someone's private life after they've committed suicide, so I seriously doubt you're going to get that information.

Although you have ignored a whole post of mine, I'm just going to ask you one thing that you also ignored from an earlier post. What do you think qualifies you to assess and judge what has happened to Ven. S?
:goodpost:
A dying man can only rely upon his wisdom, if he developed it. Wisdom is not dependent upon any phenomenon originated upon six senses. It is developed on the basis of the discernment of the same. That’s why when one’s senses start to wither and die, the knowledge of their nature remains unaffected. When there is no wisdom, there will be despair, in the face of death.

- Ajahn Nyanamoli Thero

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:46 pm

SDC wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:59 pm
thepea wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:45 pm
Not true, a teacher. a student or co meditator who had contact with him and his day to day mindset could have insight into this.
So you thought that speculating publicly about it for the last two weeks was the best way to get in touch with someone who had close contact with Ven. S? Typically people don't sign onto forums and discuss someone's private life after they've committed suicide, so I seriously doubt you're going to get that information.

Although you have ignored a whole post of mine, I'm just going to ask you one thing that you also ignored from an earlier post. What do you think qualifies you to assess and judge what has happened to Ven. S?
It’s your general tone that I dislike when corresponding with you. I’m not posting from an emotional state as stated before. The thread once again has been allowed. Not sure why as a moderator in a position of authority you keep posting to me in such a degrading fashion publicly.
I get that you find this topic disgraceful, and don’t care for it. Try not to let that sink into your posts, it would be fine if you were not moderating but you should keep personal feelings towards me out of it.

I’m not ignoring your points, I’ve addressed them. I’m not judging bhante S. I’m asking some tough questions that I find of value. I never expect “the answer” to my questions to come suddenly, it’s the general interaction and tonal responses from different members and staff that often serve up the best tidbits. Tough hot topics are the best for this, some members get all emotional and preach buddha, some get annoyed and upset, some are insulting, some remain calm and balanced and detached and just offer up decent solid opinions and experience.
I’m not judging, I’m asking questions to something that I feel should not happen with my current understanding of dhamma and with a teacher of so many years. Not sure why you don’t understand my concern with what happened.

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:54 pm

Akashad wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:05 pm

He is human like us.Teaching the dhamma doesn't make one immune to suffering.
Dhamma should clear out these suicidal thoughts and reactions. Dhamma should prepare one for the great sufferings that come with sickness and old age. One should die well with a calm and balanced mind so the next birth if any is favourable. IMO

sentinel
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by sentinel » Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:02 pm

Hi Thepea ,

It seems suicidal case was common while Buddha still alive . Such as there were many monks whom practice the Paṭikkūlamanasikāra or asubhānupassin i.e. reflections on the repulsiveness or foulness of the body whom took their own lives . Nothing is controllable .
Another example is as text below attempted for suicide , although I don't know how temporary liberation supposed to be !

Regards


https://suttacentral.net/sn4.23/en/bodhi

Then it occurred to the Venerable Godhika: “Six times already I have fallen away from temporary liberation of mind. Let me use the knife.”

Then Mara the Evil One, having known with his own mind the reflection in the Venerable Godhika’s mind, approached the Blessed One and addressed him with these verses:
“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” -Buddha

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:29 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:02 pm
Hi Thepea ,

It seems suicidal case was common while Buddha still alive . Such as there were many monks whom practice the Paṭikkūlamanasikāra or asubhānupassin i.e. reflections on the repulsiveness or foulness of the body whom took their own lives . Nothing is controllable .
Another example is as text below attempted for suicide , although I don't know how temporary liberation supposed to be !

Regards


https://suttacentral.net/sn4.23/en/bodhi

Then it occurred to the Venerable Godhika: “Six times already I have fallen away from temporary liberation of mind. Let me use the knife.”

Then Mara the Evil One, having known with his own mind the reflection in the Venerable Godhika’s mind, approached the Blessed One and addressed him with these verses:
Seems like everyone who killed themselves in Buddha’s time was an arahant?
Perhaps buddha was just being positive?
I’m skeptical.

binocular
Posts: 6951
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by binocular » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:06 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:32 pm
binocular wrote:
cappuccino wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:25 pm
suicide is giving up
Giving up on what exactly?
everything, anything
Not at all. It depends on the person's attitude, mental state, intention. Perhaps the person didn't commit suicide believing that doing so would end suffering.

In fact, it would be strange for a religious/spiritual person to not contemplate suicide at some point. How else could one see its drawbacks?

Aniccato
Posts: 88
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by Aniccato » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:10 pm

thepea wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:29 pm
sentinel wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:02 pm
Hi Thepea ,

It seems suicidal case was common while Buddha still alive . Such as there were many monks whom practice the Paṭikkūlamanasikāra or asubhānupassin i.e. reflections on the repulsiveness or foulness of the body whom took their own lives . Nothing is controllable .
Another example is as text below attempted for suicide , although I don't know how temporary liberation supposed to be !

Regards


https://suttacentral.net/sn4.23/en/bodhi

Then it occurred to the Venerable Godhika: “Six times already I have fallen away from temporary liberation of mind. Let me use the knife.”

Then Mara the Evil One, having known with his own mind the reflection in the Venerable Godhika’s mind, approached the Blessed One and addressed him with these verses:
Seems like everyone who killed themselves in Buddha’s time was an arahant?
Perhaps buddha was just being positive?
I’m skeptical.
In my honest opinion. You’re thinking too hard about it my friend. This unnecessary thinking is not helpful nor conducive to the path. As a friend and Kalyana Mitta I recommend just letting it go like the Buddha advised. It’s one of those unknown questions that the answer can not be ascertained. I don’t see anything healthy or helpful coming out of it. I hope you see the sincerity behind this message. I am not judging or telling you anything. Just giving you some food for thought.

“ And why haven’t I declared these things? Because they aren’t beneficial or relevant to the fundamentals of the spiritual life. They don’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. That’s why I haven’t declared them.
And what have I declared? I have declared the following: ‘this is suffering,’ ‘this is the origin of suffering,’ ‘this is the cessation of suffering,’ ‘this is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.’
And why have I declared these things? Because they are beneficial and relevant to the fundamentals of the spiritual life. They lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. That’s why I have declared them. So, Māluṅkyaputta, you should remember what I have not declared as undeclared, and what I have declared as declared.”

MN 63
https://suttacentral.net/mn63/en/sujato
With Metta

thepea
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:22 pm

Aniccato wrote: In my honest opinion. You’re thinking too hard about it my friend. This unnecessary thinking is not helpful nor conducive to the path. As a friend and Kalyana Mitta I recommend just letting it go like the Buddha advised. It’s one of those unknown questions that the answer can not be ascertained. I don’t see anything healthy or helpful coming out of it. I hope you see the sincerity behind this message. I am not judging or telling you anything. Just giving you some food for thought.

“ And why haven’t I declared these things? Because they aren’t beneficial or relevant to the fundamentals of the spiritual life. They don’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. That’s why I haven’t declared them.
And what have I declared? I have declared the following: ‘this is suffering,’ ‘this is the origin of suffering,’ ‘this is the cessation of suffering,’ ‘this is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.’
And why have I declared these things? Because they are beneficial and relevant to the fundamentals of the spiritual life. They lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. That’s why I have declared them. So, Māluṅkyaputta, you should remember what I have not declared as undeclared, and what I have declared as declared.”

MN 63
https://suttacentral.net/mn63/en/sujato
That just not true, I’m sure the people who new this monk could answer whether he was suffering in s reactive way before taking his life or if he was enlightened and safe.
Point being was he practicing and teaching dhamma , or was a key teaching missing and ignorance was still plenty.

Also the majority of subjects at this site fall into your criticisms.

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