Monastics and suicide

[binocular]

It’s not the teachers job to do the work required, only the student can do this, teachers job is to keep student on path and throw them a rope if the fall into a trap.

Have you any idea what trust Goenka courses require from the students????! They have to take for granted that the Goenka courses have the keys to nibbana. That is an absurd amount of trust to have and to expect from anyone. If anything, it's likely because of this that people sometimes go crazy in those retreats.

What your failing to see is goenka organization did not fail this individual, it was her karma.

Yes, religious/spiritual people eventually always find a way to place the blame exclusively on the individual, and to exonerate themselves.

Goenka would fail if this individual was placed in or allowed to guide and teach students. Her illness was exposed during the course but not in time to prevent her from beginning. It’s important to start with sila and fill out application honestly.

You accuse her of all those things, but also admit that you don't know the details ...

My concern is that a monastic with decades of practice and teaching experience kills himself. I wonder what he was practicing those years.

Dhamma works quickly.

Can you provide the canonical evidence for the claim that "Dhamma works quickly"?

Even theoretically, "Dhamma works quickly" cannot be true, because it doesn't account for the complexity of someone's past kamma, and it doesn't account for the canonical examples of people who practiced diligently for a long time without any apparent results.

[cappuccino]

it might work quickly in the time of the Buddha

but that was a while back

now it might begin by making you crazy

these are crazy times

[thepea]

It’s not the teachers job to do the work required, only the student can do this, teachers job is to keep student on path and throw them a rope if the fall into a trap.

Have you any idea what trust Goenka courses require from the students????! They have to take for granted that the Goenka courses have the keys to nibbana. That is an absurd amount of trust to have and to expect from anyone. If anything, it's likely because of this that people sometimes go crazy in those retreats.

What your failing to see is goenka organization did not fail this individual, it was her karma.

Yes, religious/spiritual people eventually always find a way to place the blame exclusively on the individual, and to exonerate themselves.

Goenka would fail if this individual was placed in or allowed to guide and teach students. Her illness was exposed during the course but not in time to prevent her from beginning. It’s important to start with sila and fill out application honestly.

You accuse her of all those things, but also admit that you don't know the details ...

My concern is that a monastic with decades of practice and teaching experience kills himself. I wonder what he was practicing those years.

Dhamma works quickly.

Can you provide the canonical evidence for the claim that "Dhamma works quickly"?

Even theoretically, "Dhamma works quickly" cannot be true, because it doesn't account for the complexity of someone's past kamma, and it doesn't account for the canonical examples of people who practiced diligently for a long time without any apparent results.

I was reading the accounts of this girl who took her life, I’m not speaking from first hand experience as I was not there. I read that she was on meds for anxiety, and that she stopped taking them. From my experience this girl would probably been refused acceptance or would have been monitored closely and would have had to remain on meds. The circumstances lead me to conclude that she did not disclose truthfully her medical conditions. I really can’t speak to this other than my own experiences with the great care taken in the application process.

People struggle in these courses for sure, but the idea is to work through the difficulties. The application process is to try to determine those who can successfully do the work. Of course there will be those who slip through the cracks.
But you won’t find those who slip through the cracks teaching a course it is a process which takes an incredible dedication to be given that responsibility. Also you are observed and work side by side with a teacher before doing it solo. And that’s to assist goenka he gives all instruction and discourses.

I’m not a Sutta guy, I’m an experience guy, dhamma works quickly. If there is a dark heavy Kamma to kill oneself it won’t take long with continuous practice for it to rise. The dhamma is to give the tools to observe these thought without reacting to them.

[cappuccino]

dhamma works quickly.

reading the scriptures is the fast way


actually it's the only way

[thepea]

dhamma works quickly.

reading the scriptures is the fast way


actually it's the only way

So I don’t need to practice sila, I just need to read about it?

[cappuccino]

So I don’t need to practice virtue, I just need to read about it?

not just reading, having insight

learning the way things really are

[tamdrin]

Can someone tell me which monk committed suicide? Is there any article or any more information? That is terribly sad...

[thepea]

Can someone tell me which monk committed suicide? Is there any article or any more information? That is terribly sad...

Bhikkhu Sammahita,
there is another thread with that information, I’m sure someone can provide a link.

[thepea]

So I don’t need to practice virtue, I just need to read about it?

not just reading, having insight

learning the way things really are

So that comes from reading?

[cappuccino]

So I don’t need to practice virtue, I just need to read about it?

not just reading, having insight

learning the way things really are

So that comes from reading?

it was oral

same words, same meaning, same result

[form]

How do one live without motivation to continue?

[binocular]

I’m not a Sutta guy, I’m an experience guy

So you make claims about the Dhamma and the Buddha, and you have entirely private standards for doing so.

This is a Theravada forum. The Pali Canon in one of the main authorities here. Your views belong to the "Connections to other paths" section, at most.

[binocular]

So I don’t need to practice sila, I just need to read about it?

It's ironic that you emphasise sila, but have no qualms about making claims about the Dhamma and the Buddha without canonical evidence ...

[Chanh Dao]

It’s not the teachers job to do the work required, only the student can do this, teachers job is to keep student on path and throw them a rope if the fall into a trap.

Have you any idea what trust Goenka courses require from the students????! They have to take for granted that the Goenka courses have the keys to nibbana. That is an absurd amount of trust to have and to expect from anyone. If anything, it's likely because of this that people sometimes go crazy in those retreats.

What your failing to see is goenka organization did not fail this individual, it was her karma.

Yes, religious/spiritual people eventually always find a way to place the blame exclusively on the individual, and to exonerate themselves.

Goenka would fail if this individual was placed in or allowed to guide and teach students. Her illness was exposed during the course but not in time to prevent her from beginning. It’s important to start with sila and fill out application honestly.

You accuse her of all those things, but also admit that you don't know the details ...

My concern is that a monastic with decades of practice and teaching experience kills himself. I wonder what he was practicing those years.

Dhamma works quickly.

Can you provide the canonical evidence for the claim that "Dhamma works quickly"?

Even theoretically, "Dhamma works quickly" cannot be true, because it doesn't account for the complexity of someone's past kamma, and it doesn't account for the canonical examples of people who practiced diligently for a long time without any apparent results.

I was reading the accounts of this girl who took her life, I’m not speaking from first hand experience as I was not there. I read that she was on meds for anxiety, and that she stopped taking them. From my experience this girl would probably been refused acceptance or would have been monitored closely and would have had to remain on meds. The circumstances lead me to conclude that she did not disclose truthfully her medical conditions. I really can’t speak to this other than my own experiences with the great care taken in the application process.

People struggle in these courses for sure, but the idea is to work through the difficulties. The application process is to try to determine those who can successfully do the work. Of course there will be those who slip through the cracks.
But you won’t find those who slip through the cracks teaching a course it is a process which takes an incredible dedication to be given that responsibility. Also you are observed and work side by side with a teacher before doing it solo. And that’s to assist goenka he gives all instruction and discourses.

I’m not a Sutta guy, I’m an experience guy, dhamma works quickly. If there is a dark heavy Kamma to kill oneself it won’t take long with continuous practice for it to rise. The dhamma is to give the tools to observe these thought without reacting to them.

The organization bare minimum had a responsibility to this young woman. Its inexcusable if you ask me.

She asked for help and support multiple times and was ignored.

Dhamma organizations like Goenka have a huge responsibility to take care of people like her if they ask for help.

Maybe not legally but it's the right thing to do.

So I never advise new people to go into a 10 day visspasanaa and I dont think very highly of the institution.

[tamdrin]

Can someone tell me which monk committed suicide? Is there any article or any more information? That is terribly sad...

Bhikkhu Sammahita,
there is another thread with that information, I’m sure someone can provide a link.

I haven't been able to find it. If you could kindly provide the link...