Monastics and suicide

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
binocular
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:20 pm

thepea wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:21 pm
It’s not the teachers job to do the work required, only the student can do this, teachers job is to keep student on path and throw them a rope if the fall into a trap.
Have you any idea what trust Goenka courses require from the students????! They have to take for granted that the Goenka courses have the keys to nibbana. That is an absurd amount of trust to have and to expect from anyone. If anything, it's likely because of this that people sometimes go crazy in those retreats.
What your failing to see is goenka organization did not fail this individual, it was her karma.
Yes, religious/spiritual people eventually always find a way to place the blame exclusively on the individual, and to exonerate themselves.
Goenka would fail if this individual was placed in or allowed to guide and teach students. Her illness was exposed during the course but not in time to prevent her from beginning. It’s important to start with sila and fill out application honestly.
You accuse her of all those things, but also admit that you don't know the details ...
My concern is that a monastic with decades of practice and teaching experience kills himself. I wonder what he was practicing those years.

Dhamma works quickly.
Can you provide the canonical evidence for the claim that "Dhamma works quickly"?

Even theoretically, "Dhamma works quickly" cannot be true, because it doesn't account for the complexity of someone's past kamma, and it doesn't account for the canonical examples of people who practiced diligently for a long time without any apparent results.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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cappuccino
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by cappuccino » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:12 am

it might work quickly in the time of the Buddha

but that was a while back

now it might begin by making you crazy

these are crazy times

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:59 am

binocular wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:20 pm
thepea wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:21 pm
It’s not the teachers job to do the work required, only the student can do this, teachers job is to keep student on path and throw them a rope if the fall into a trap.
Have you any idea what trust Goenka courses require from the students????! They have to take for granted that the Goenka courses have the keys to nibbana. That is an absurd amount of trust to have and to expect from anyone. If anything, it's likely because of this that people sometimes go crazy in those retreats.
What your failing to see is goenka organization did not fail this individual, it was her karma.
Yes, religious/spiritual people eventually always find a way to place the blame exclusively on the individual, and to exonerate themselves.
Goenka would fail if this individual was placed in or allowed to guide and teach students. Her illness was exposed during the course but not in time to prevent her from beginning. It’s important to start with sila and fill out application honestly.
You accuse her of all those things, but also admit that you don't know the details ...
My concern is that a monastic with decades of practice and teaching experience kills himself. I wonder what he was practicing those years.

Dhamma works quickly.
Can you provide the canonical evidence for the claim that "Dhamma works quickly"?

Even theoretically, "Dhamma works quickly" cannot be true, because it doesn't account for the complexity of someone's past kamma, and it doesn't account for the canonical examples of people who practiced diligently for a long time without any apparent results.
I was reading the accounts of this girl who took her life, I’m not speaking from first hand experience as I was not there. I read that she was on meds for anxiety, and that she stopped taking them. From my experience this girl would probably been refused acceptance or would have been monitored closely and would have had to remain on meds. The circumstances lead me to conclude that she did not disclose truthfully her medical conditions. I really can’t speak to this other than my own experiences with the great care taken in the application process.

People struggle in these courses for sure, but the idea is to work through the difficulties. The application process is to try to determine those who can successfully do the work. Of course there will be those who slip through the cracks.
But you won’t find those who slip through the cracks teaching a course it is a process which takes an incredible dedication to be given that responsibility. Also you are observed and work side by side with a teacher before doing it solo. And that’s to assist goenka he gives all instruction and discourses.

I’m not a Sutta guy, I’m an experience guy, dhamma works quickly. If there is a dark heavy Kamma to kill oneself it won’t take long with continuous practice for it to rise. The dhamma is to give the tools to observe these thought without reacting to them.

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cappuccino
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by cappuccino » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:05 am

thepea wrote: dhamma works quickly.
reading the scriptures is the fast way


actually it's the only way

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:28 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:05 am
thepea wrote: dhamma works quickly.
reading the scriptures is the fast way


actually it's the only way
So I don’t need to practice sila, I just need to read about it?

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cappuccino
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by cappuccino » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:38 am

thepea wrote: So I don’t need to practice virtue, I just need to read about it?
not just reading, having insight

learning the way things really are

tamdrin
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Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand

Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by tamdrin » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:40 am

Can someone tell me which monk committed suicide? Is there any article or any more information? That is terribly sad...

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:03 am

tamdrin wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:40 am
Can someone tell me which monk committed suicide? Is there any article or any more information? That is terribly sad...
Bhikkhu Sammahita,
there is another thread with that information, I’m sure someone can provide a link.
Last edited by thepea on Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:05 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:38 am
thepea wrote: So I don’t need to practice virtue, I just need to read about it?
not just reading, having insight

learning the way things really are
So that comes from reading?

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cappuccino
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by cappuccino » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:55 am

thepea wrote:
cappuccino wrote:
thepea wrote: So I don’t need to practice virtue, I just need to read about it?
not just reading, having insight

learning the way things really are
So that comes from reading?
it was oral

same words, same meaning, same result

form
Posts: 1313
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by form » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:23 am

How do one live without motivation to continue?

binocular
Posts: 6882
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:56 am

thepea wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:59 am
I’m not a Sutta guy, I’m an experience guy
So you make claims about the Dhamma and the Buddha, and you have entirely private standards for doing so.

This is a Theravada forum. The Pali Canon in one of the main authorities here. Your views belong to the "Connections to other paths" section, at most.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
Posts: 6882
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by binocular » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:21 am

thepea wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:28 am
So I don’t need to practice sila, I just need to read about it?
It's ironic that you emphasise sila, but have no qualms about making claims about the Dhamma and the Buddha without canonical evidence ...
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Chanh Dao
Posts: 135
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by Chanh Dao » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:47 am

thepea wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:59 am
binocular wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:20 pm
thepea wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:21 pm
It’s not the teachers job to do the work required, only the student can do this, teachers job is to keep student on path and throw them a rope if the fall into a trap.
Have you any idea what trust Goenka courses require from the students????! They have to take for granted that the Goenka courses have the keys to nibbana. That is an absurd amount of trust to have and to expect from anyone. If anything, it's likely because of this that people sometimes go crazy in those retreats.
What your failing to see is goenka organization did not fail this individual, it was her karma.
Yes, religious/spiritual people eventually always find a way to place the blame exclusively on the individual, and to exonerate themselves.
Goenka would fail if this individual was placed in or allowed to guide and teach students. Her illness was exposed during the course but not in time to prevent her from beginning. It’s important to start with sila and fill out application honestly.
You accuse her of all those things, but also admit that you don't know the details ...
My concern is that a monastic with decades of practice and teaching experience kills himself. I wonder what he was practicing those years.

Dhamma works quickly.
Can you provide the canonical evidence for the claim that "Dhamma works quickly"?

Even theoretically, "Dhamma works quickly" cannot be true, because it doesn't account for the complexity of someone's past kamma, and it doesn't account for the canonical examples of people who practiced diligently for a long time without any apparent results.
I was reading the accounts of this girl who took her life, I’m not speaking from first hand experience as I was not there. I read that she was on meds for anxiety, and that she stopped taking them. From my experience this girl would probably been refused acceptance or would have been monitored closely and would have had to remain on meds. The circumstances lead me to conclude that she did not disclose truthfully her medical conditions. I really can’t speak to this other than my own experiences with the great care taken in the application process.

People struggle in these courses for sure, but the idea is to work through the difficulties. The application process is to try to determine those who can successfully do the work. Of course there will be those who slip through the cracks.
But you won’t find those who slip through the cracks teaching a course it is a process which takes an incredible dedication to be given that responsibility. Also you are observed and work side by side with a teacher before doing it solo. And that’s to assist goenka he gives all instruction and discourses.

I’m not a Sutta guy, I’m an experience guy, dhamma works quickly. If there is a dark heavy Kamma to kill oneself it won’t take long with continuous practice for it to rise. The dhamma is to give the tools to observe these thought without reacting to them.

The organization bare minimum had a responsibility to this young woman. Its inexcusable if you ask me.

She asked for help and support multiple times and was ignored.

Dhamma organizations like Goenka have a huge responsibility to take care of people like her if they ask for help.

Maybe not legally but it's the right thing to do.

So I never advise new people to go into a 10 day visspasanaa and I dont think very highly of the institution.

tamdrin
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:34 pm
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand

Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by tamdrin » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:55 am

thepea wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:03 am
tamdrin wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:40 am
Can someone tell me which monk committed suicide? Is there any article or any more information? That is terribly sad...
Bhikkhu Sammahita,
there is another thread with that information, I’m sure someone can provide a link.


I haven't been able to find it. If you could kindly provide the link...

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