Monastics and suicide

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thepea
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Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:29 pm

Whenever someone commits suicide it opens the door to curiosity, was this individual secretly depressed, were they in pain and couldn’t take it anymore.
I’m skeptical of practices within theravaden traditions, monastics are not allowed to reveal attainments to laypersons which creates a secret club of sorts.

Seems worthy to decipher whether a teaching monk who takes their own life after decades of practice was teaching dhamma or if this individual was confused.
Robes are not magical and should not contain the power to limit discussion.
Last edited by retrofuturist on Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Metadiscussion removed

SarathW
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by SarathW » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:42 pm

Perhaps the best person to answer this question is Ven. Dhammanando or another monk in this forum.
Or a person lives very close to the monastic setting.
In my opinion, a monk should live with another monk and they should do Patimokkha recitation as per Vinaya.
I believe a monk can openly discuss your health issues at that meeting.
I think this thread should move to a proper section perhaps ordination and monastic life.
Last edited by SarathW on Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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cappuccino
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by cappuccino » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:48 pm

Life is suffering, this is not a reason to kill yourself

It's something to acknowledge

SarathW
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by SarathW » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:51 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:48 pm
Life is suffering, this is not a reason to kill yourself

It's something to acknowledge
You don't know for sure until you get to that level.


viewtopic.php?f=22&t=16532&p=235526&hilit=
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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cappuccino
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by cappuccino » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:52 pm

I was at that level

SarathW
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by SarathW » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:55 pm

Agree. But what if you know that you have to live like all your life.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by SarathW » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:58 pm

Seems worthy to decipher whether a teaching monk who takes their own life after decades of practice was teaching dhamma or if this individual was confused.
Good point.
That is why you keep Dhamma as your teacher. Others are your Kalyanamitta trying their best to help you.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:02 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:42 pm
Perhaps the best person to answer this question is Ven. Dhammanando or another monk in this forum.
Or a person lives very close to the monastic setting.
In my opinion, a monk should live with another monk and they should do Patimokkha recitation as per Vinaya.
I believe a monk can openly discuss your health issues at that meeting.
I think this thread should move to a proper section perhaps ordination and monastic life.
No Sarath, I would prefer this remain in general discussion, as my skepticism is related to Theravada in general and not simply its ordained members.
Basically I get these red flags which my inner “spidy senses” give warning and I question.
Last edited by retrofuturist on Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Metadiscussion removed

SarathW
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by SarathW » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:14 pm

How can you expect to get an answer to a monastic question from a layperson?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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retrofuturist
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:34 pm

Greetings,

The meta-discussion is going to be removed.

It's fine to have a topic on "Monastics and Suicide" but not if the purpose is to complain about moderation and members of this forum.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Bundokji
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by Bundokji » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:41 pm

I think we better focus on our own suffering and lack of wisdom. I think free speech is inseparable from right speech and the right for others to disagree. As a general moral principle, giving people the benefit of the doubt is a way to protect ourselves from transgression.

There is nothing wrong with discussing ideas, but discussing people is a different matter altogether.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:02 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:34 pm
Greetings,

The meta-discussion is going to be removed.

It's fine to have a topic on "Monastics and Suicide" but not if the purpose is to complain about moderation and members of this forum.

Metta,
Paul. :)
It seems relevant to the argument and skepticism, you are taking the position that certain robed members are well on the path, but personal communication regarding sensitive matters shows a reactive side, which is very confusing.
Years of practice and bhantes leave robes for women, some mate with women while in robes. Raises the question in me whether Theravada is not watered down and generally missing the mark? Should we not be incredibly diligent with whom we learn from.
I’ve had discussions with Santa100 regarding precepts and sotapanna, seems according to Santa100’s logic that a Sotapanna can not kill. Then in the locked bhantes thread there are remarks of him attaining Nibbāna in few lives if not already. I translate this as he has attained a very high level of enlightenment. It’s confusing, when according to popular opinion that this action would make him a putthaganna. :shrug:

thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:05 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:41 pm

There is nothing wrong with discussing ideas, but discussing people is a different matter altogether.
We discuss people here all the time, there was a thread about robin williams suicide, but can’t discuss a monk who was a member here?

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Bundokji
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by Bundokji » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:30 pm

thepea wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:05 pm
We discuss people here all the time, there was a thread about robin williams suicide, but can’t discuss a monk who was a member here?
To be clear, i have no right in saying what can be discussed or not discussed on this forum as the authority of this belongs to the admin and moderators team. I was simply referring to what i see as a general principle.

In my limited understanding, the spirit of the practice is to avoid mental proliferations. When i have read the sad news about the Venerable passing away, i had questions arising in my mind, then i tried to reflect on what i know and what i don't know. What i know is that the venerable shared his knowledge of the dhamma selflessly over many years. While i did not read his posts very often, i could notice the effort he made not only to make the content appealing to the mind, but also to the eye.

I also had a personal experience reading one of his threads in which a member had remarks on a particular content that he thought was irrational and not inline with science or logic. When i read about the Venerable's scientific credentials after his passing away, it reminded me of that incident, and i thought how our minds have the tendency to associate intelligence with arrogance, something i am guilty of very often.

What i did not know is the details of his passing away except that he took his own life. This is the limitation of my knowledge, so why should i make any unwarranted conclusions about it?

Overall, from my vantage point, whatever i learned from the venerable was useful and given to me for free, and for that, i am grateful. His personal actions should not be one of my concerns.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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cappuccino
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by cappuccino » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:46 pm

the highest level of discussion is ideas (the truth)

then things (like technology)

the lowest level of discussion is people (gossip)

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