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What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:34 am
by SarathW
What it means by "consciousness turn back"?
What is the opposite of turning back" (ie: consciousness not turning back)

Then it occurred to me:
Tassa mayhaṃ, bhikkhave, etadahosi—
This consciousness turns back from name and form, and doesn’t go beyond that.
paccudāvattati kho idaṃ viññāṇaṃ nāmarūpamhā na paraṃ gacchati.
This is the extent to which one may be reborn, grow old, die, pass away, or reappear. That is: name and form are conditions for consciousness.
Ettāvatā jāyetha vā jīyetha vā mīyetha vā cavetha vā upapajjetha vā, yadidaṃ nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇaṃ;
Consciousness is a condition for name and form.
viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṃ;

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.65/en/sujato

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:09 am
by DooDoot
paccudāvattati :shrug:

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:20 am
by chownah
SarathW wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:34 am What it means by "consciousness turn back"?
What is the opposite of turning back" (ie: consciousness not turning back)

Then it occurred to me:
Tassa mayhaṃ, bhikkhave, etadahosi—
This consciousness turns back from name and form, and doesn’t go beyond that.
Thanissaro renders this as "This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther". In english to say "turn back from" and "turn back at" are different in meaning. "Turning back from" usually means to change ones course so as to go away from something....while "turning back at" usually means that one has arrived at something which makes one reverse course and go no farther. In the situation you present it seems like "turning back from" means that consciousness avoids or evades name and form while "turning back at" means that consciousness does not go beyond the boundaries of name and form........two very different meanings but of course these are just my own interpretations of what is being said.
chownah

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:17 am
by sentinel
DooDoot wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:09 am paccudāvattati :shrug:
I don't understand Pali , could you explain ?

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:21 am
by DooDoot
sentinel wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:17 am I don't understand Pali
I also don't understand Pali. However, it could be pati + uda + vattati :shrug:

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:27 am
by sentinel
DooDoot wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:21 am
sentinel wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:17 am I don't understand Pali
I also don't understand Pali. However, it could be pati + uda + vattati :shrug:
Isn't this a coincidence !
:lol:

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:51 am
by Srilankaputra
This might be relevent;
When the nutriment of consciousness is comprehended, name & form are comprehended. When name & form are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:08 pm
by sentinel
Maybe venerable dhammanando could help us to understand this millennium issue ?!

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:17 pm
by santa100
SarathW wrote:What it means by "consciousness turn back"?
What is the opposite of turning back" (ie: consciousness not turning back)
The dependent arising formula's usually presented in a uni-directional cause/condition chain. But SN 12.65 provided a version of DO with what's called the "looped version" of the dependent arising formula, where consciousness and name/form mutually condition each other (hence the "loop" or "turning back" when being drawn out in a schematic diagram). See a similar thread here for more details.

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:48 pm
by SarathW
Thanks, Santa.
(From your other post)

It's because consciousness and name-form have a mutual dependency, which SN 12.67 gives further explanation using the simile of two sheaves of reeds leaning against each other. As far as the part where "consciousness turning back", it doesn't mean that it has no other prior conditions. Ven. Bodhi's note citing Comy.'s explanation to clarify the meaning of "turning back":
This consciousness turns back (paccudāvattati kho idaṃ viññāṇāṃ). Spk: What is the consciousness that turns back here? The rebirth-consciousness and the insight-consciousness. Rebirth-consciousness turns back from its condition, insight-consciousness from its object. Neither overcomes name-and-form, goes further than name-and-form.
Spk-pṭ: From its condition: Rebirth-consciousness turns back from volitional formations—the special cause for consciousness—which has not been mentioned; it does not turn back from all conditions, as name-and-form is stated as the condition for consciousness. From its object: from ignorance and volitional formations as object, or from the past existence as object.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32886

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:07 am
by pegembara
Have a look at Nibbana Sermons No. 3 by K Nanananda. A commentarial that reads like the sutta you mentioned.

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... ol_1-1.pdf

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:44 am
by DooDoot
santa100 wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:17 pmThe dependent arising formula's usually presented in a uni-directional cause/condition chain. But SN 12.65 provided a version of DO with what's called the "looped version" of the dependent arising formula, where consciousness and name/form mutually condition each other (hence the "loop" or "turning back" when being drawn out in a schematic diagram).
The 10 link looped formula appears from when Gotama was not yet fully enlightened. In the 12 link formula, sankhara appears to replace the need for a looped nama-rupa to condition consciousness. The bottom line appears to be there can be no independent consciousness arising/existing without a sense object, per MN 38; SN 22.53; etc. Therefore, it appears consciousness can only arise with sankhara as a condition (SN 12.2) ; or with nama-rupa as a condition (SN 12.65; DN 15); or with four aggregates as a condition (SN 22.53); or with six sense bases as a condition (MN 18; MN 38; MN 148; etc). :smile:

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:23 am
by sentinel
Probably Venerable Dhammanando did not noticed above request to answer the question or not thinking of answering .
So , my understanding is , bhikkhu bodhi explanation of rebirth consciousness is not making sense , rebirth consciousness wasn't taught by the Buddha . And K Nanananda says ignorance and sankhara not being mentioned because it is in the background , that doesn't sound logical .
Perhaps any good guy here could help offer some
comment ?!


Thanks

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:42 am
by DooDoot
sentinel wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:23 amPerhaps any good guy here could help offer some
comment ?!
I consider myself a good guy :mrgreen: and already provided an explanation in my previous post.

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:52 am
by sentinel
DooDoot wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:42 am
sentinel wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:23 amPerhaps any good guy here could help offer some
comment ?!
I consider myself a good guy :mrgreen: and already provided an explanation in my previous post.
Good guy ,

Please elaborate more I am afraid I don't get the meaning .