What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

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DooDoot
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by DooDoot »

sentinel wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:52 amPlease elaborate more I am afraid I don't get the meaning .
The suttas appear to say in many places: consciousness cannot arise/exist without a sense object.

1. Therefore, when Bodhisatta Gotama was discovering dependent origination, he traced back feeling to sense contact; he traced back sense contact to sense bases; he traced back sense bases to mind-body; and he traced back the experiencing of mind-body to consciousness. Then we he asked: "what is the cause of consciousness?" he replied "mind-body". SN 22.82 says: "Nāmarūpaṃ are the cause why the aggregate of consciousness is found". HOWEVER, this consciousness & nama-rupa here are merely mental & physical elements or neutral of suffering.

2. Later, he traced back dependent origination to ignorance. But, here, consciousness & nama-rupa were not merely elements and neutral. Here, consciousness was "arising" or "operating" because sankhara was causing consciousness to be pre-occupied with the sankhara (inner thought). Therefore, the condition for consciousness became sankhara rather than nama-rupa.

SN 22.53 explains what I call "consciousness arising" or "operating":
SN 22.53 wrote:Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to fabrications, supported by fabrications (as its object), landing on fabrications, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase & proliferation.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
To consider my explanation, you must first look inside of your mind. You must see:

1. Whenever thinking (sankhara) arises, what happens is that thinking causes consciousness to be pre-occupied with it.

2. Whenever there is no thinking (no sankhara), then consciousness becomes pre-occupied with or lands on another object, such as silence, sounds, breathing, peacefulness, little nibbana, etc.

Please put down the books and look inside your mind. When thinking (sankhara) arises, this causes consciousness to know the thinking and be slave of the thinking. :meditate:
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:24 am ......
Thanks for the explanation . After putting down the book and contemplating , mind appear comprehensible .
After read again and re reading several times , I think , the meaning now perhaps became clear .

Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: ‘(as)This consciousness turns back; (then) it does not go further than name-and-form. It is to this extent that one may be born and age and die, pass away and be reborn, that is, when there is consciousness with name-and-form as its condition, and name-and-form with consciousness as its condition. With name-and-form as condition, the six sense bases; with the six sense bases as condition, contact…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.’
And should the consciousness go farther than namarupa then the cycle of birth and death ends .
Last edited by sentinel on Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by Zom »

What it means by "consciousness turn back"?
What is the opposite of turning back" (ie: consciousness not turning back)
That's an interesting question if we are going into details, but no matter what the answer is, the essense here is the interconnectedness of consciousness with other mental factors aka "nama", including contact. That is, consciousness doesn't exist by itself (or by some unknown or unseen or mystic force like God's will or Transcendent Self or Out-of-space-and-time Reality or whatever), but it exists only because there is "nama", and vice versa. Practically that means that if we attain such state where nama ceases, together with contact, consciousness will cease as well (this is exactly what happens in nirodha-samapatti or final nibbana). Such realization shows that no True Self exists, even in such sublime and highest phenomenon as consciousness.
SarathW
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by SarathW »

Practically that means that if we attain such state where nama ceases, together with contact, consciousness will cease as well (this is exactly what happens in nirodha-samapatti or final nibbana). Such realization shows that no True Self exists, even in such sublime and highest phenomenon as consciousness.
Agree, except that there is a Sutta to say that Nirodh-samapatti is not Nibbana.
However, I agree that when Namarup ceases the consciousness ceases too.
There is a Sutta to support this. (the simile of the two ??)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:56 pmHowever, I agree that when Namarup ceases the consciousness ceases too.
If so, how do you explain the following verse? :shrug:
Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by SarathW »

Don't know.
Vinnana Nirodha, Namarupa Nirodha may be referring to patisandi Vinnana.
My guess is it is referring to the consciousness of a living Arahant.
Thanks for pointing it out though. :D
Unfortunately, DD we have no way to find this unless we become an Arahant.
Let me get to second Jhana, (one day) then I will tell you. :thumbsup:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by chownah »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:40 am
SarathW wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:56 pmHowever, I agree that when Namarup ceases the consciousness ceases too.
If so, how do you explain the following verse? :shrug:
Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
Thanissaro gives an explanation here:
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by pegembara »

?SIGNLESS CONCENTRAION

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html

Monks, there are these three types of unskillful thinking: thinking of sensuality, thinking of ill will, thinking of harm. These three types of unskillful thinking cease without remainder in one who dwells with his mind well established in the four frames of reference or who develops the signless concentration. This is reason enough, monks, to develop the signless concentration. The signless concentration, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, great benefit.
SN 22.80

And what, venerable sir, is the signless liberation of mind? Here, with nonattention to all signs, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the signless concentration of mind. This is called the signless liberation of mind.
SN 41.7

“And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned?
Signless concentration….
SN 43.12
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by SarathW »

Bhikkhu Bodhi translates animitta cetosamadi as "signless concentration of the mind".

He says that the commentary interprets it as: "Insight concentration, which occurs when one has abandoned the sign of permanence, etc."

He says that it is not defined further in the Nikyas but that it's placement after the formless attainments suggests it is a samadhi qualitatively different from those attained in samatha meditation. In SN41:7 there is a "signless liberation of the mind", animitta cetovimutti. In SN43:4 the signless concentration (animitta samadhi is called the path leading to the unconditioned:
... "And what, Bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? The emptiness concentration, the signless concentration, the undirected concentration..."
These passages connected with liberation do suggest that it has to do with insight.

Mike

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=4508&start=15
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by Pulsar »

excerpt from Nagara sutta
This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising, i.e., from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness....
We must ask ourselves "How does consciousness come to be?"
It comes to be,  because it is fed.
Srilankaputra showed us how consciousness is fed. 
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Putramansa sutta is all about it, a sutta we must meditate on every second,
if we are bent on terminating Dukkha. 
Sutta refers
to how ordinary person constantly makes contact, and create the fuel of feeling to arise
In fact the sutta advices
Be like the skinned cow, do not make contact

But do we listen? NO.
Instead we perpetuate DO every second, by relentlessly making contacts.
How do we stop making contact? how to temporarily stop DO?
Short answer: by practicing buddhist jhanas.

In the imperturbable state of 4th jhana, contact stops, there is cessation.
There is viveka from the weary rolling of DO,
another name for cessation is nirodha samapathi, or sometimes commentaries call this Arahantaphalasamapatthi
 
Pulsar's answer will only make sense to those who have made a sincere attempt to practice four jhanas as described in DN 2 Samannapahala sutta.
To others it will only be a concept.
Concepts do not lead to destruction of afflictions.
Buddha continues later, of his awakening
I have attained this path to Awakening, i.e., from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, (i.e. consciousness does not turn back, the topic under discussion) from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling....
Everyone can experience this briefly,
if they have the patience to meditate as Buddha instructed in DN 2, this taste of cooling.
During the cessation one is so concentrated, so absorbed, it is as if the six-sense media do not exist, or come to a stop. :heart:
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DooDoot
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by DooDoot »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:44 am We must ask ourselves "How does consciousness come to be?"
It comes to be,  because it is fed.
Srilankaputra showed us how consciousness is fed. 
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Putramansa sutta
Actually, Puttamansa Sutta says consciousness is a nutriment (rather than is fed nutriment).

Let us summarize the Puttamansa sutta:

1. Food of physical life = physical food

2. Food of feeling = contact

3. Food of craving = intention

4. Food of nama-rupa = consciousness

Please do not reply DooDoot does not understand the Puttamansa Sutta.
There are these four nutriments... Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the second, intellectual intention the third, and consciousness the fourth.

When the nutriment of consciousness is comprehended, name & form are comprehended. When name & form are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do.

Puttamansa Sutta
:alien:
Pulsar wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:44 amPutramansa
Why posting in Sanksrit on Theravada forum?
Pulsar wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:44 am In fact the sutta advices
Be like the skinned cow, do not make contact

But do we listen? NO.
Instead we perpetuate DO every second, by relentlessly making contacts.
How do we stop making contact? how to temporarily stop DO?
Short answer: by practicing buddhist jhanas.

In the imperturbable state of 4th jhana, contact stops, there is cessation.
The Puttamansa Sutta does not tell us to STOP eating physical food. Similarly, the Puttamansa Sutta obviously does not tell us to STOP having sense contact. Also, jhana is also a sense contact (that can be clung to). AN 4.123 tells us jhana-clingers are reborn in hell.

My interpretation of the skinned cow metaphor is it says no matter where the mind dwells, even in jhana, there will be sense contact & feelings. Therefore, when the feelings arising from sense contact are comprehended, there will be no craving & no clinging towards sense contact & feeling. There will be no jhana-clinging (upadana) & no-jhana clingers (bhava).
For wherever the flayed cow were to stand exposed, the creatures living there would chew on it. In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of contact to be regarded.

When the nutriment of contact is comprehended, the three feelings [pleasure, pain, neither pleasure nor pain] are comprehended. When the three feelings are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do.

Sutta
Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna...

Iti 44
:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by Pulsar »

Doodoot wrote
Why posting in Sanksrit on Theravada forum
Pulsar is not attached to Sanskrit nor Pali, nor Theravada, nor other yana, just this teaching of Buddha,
however it may be expressed.
Pulsar said "Stop feeding" for effect. What Tathagata means is minimize these feedings, these feelings.
Pulsar cannot
help a person who does not comprehend Putramansa sutta, nor consciousness as Pulsar
comprehends. DooDoot's understanding of Skinned cow metaphor
it says no matter where the mind dwells, even in jhana, there will be sense contact & feelings
this shows only that DooDoot has not practiced jhana.
In the state of cessation there is no contact
Pulsar dislikes commenting on other threads, just because of DooDoot's presence
there, since that presence drags folks into unnecessary mental proliferation.
Pulsar should have not participated here at all, nor will Pulsar respond to DooDoot
anymore.
Each one understands the teaching to the level, that they have practiced the buddhist jhanas. Without that
practice, it is all conceptual understanding.
Those who claim that Buddhist jhanas are supernatural events, beyond the scope of the ordinary
may read MN 113, Sappurisa Sutta, to see who has access to those.

As for DooDoot's insistence on 'folks clinging to jhana', it is an individual thing, is it not? some may be clingers
and others not, but use it as a raft for the purpose of cessation and discard it.
Some may walk around carrying that raft and laud themselves and disparage others
"I can do jhana" as a sign of superiority. Or some may say "I cannot do jhana" as a sign inferiority.

Non-identification is the secret.
Perhaps it is the training under Buddhadada bhikkhu who apparently tried to convey the meaning of Atammayata for two years without convincing his followers of the necessity of jhana meditation.
How can anyone experience non-identification without practicing jhana? Non-identification happens in the state of cessation.
If you seriously want to learn pl read Twofold Insight "Dvayatanupassana Sutta" of Sutta Nipata.
a very early teaching.
PS this perhaps is the most I want to engage with DooDoot. If anyone else has a question on
my comment I will be happy to respond. :candle:
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by Aloka »

Pulsar wrote:Perhaps it is the training under Buddhadada bhikkhu
WOW! Who's that? A Buddha who teaches with the help of funky art forms ?


:reading:

.
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by SDC »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:30 pm Pulsar should have not participated here at all, nor will Pulsar respond to DooDoot
anymore.
...
PS this perhaps is the most I want to engage with DooDoot. If anyone else has a question on
my comment I will be happy to respond. :candle:
DooDoot wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:16 am ...
Pulsar, feel free to add members who you don't prefer to engage with to your ignore list.

Both of you can keep this in mind from the ToS:
2j. Pressuring members to engage, despite them having already explicitly declined such engagement in the current topic
If either of you have any questions, please PM and do not discuss the issue further in this thread.
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by thepea »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:44 am How do we stop making contact? how to temporarily stop DO?
Short answer: by practicing buddhist jhanas.
Are we to stop making contact to gain liberation?
Are we not to stop reacting to these sense contact and remain equanimous? :shrug:
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