What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by cappuccino » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:13 pm

to cease contact just don't touch

Pulsar
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by Pulsar » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:31 pm

thepea wrote
Are we to stop making contact to gain liberation?

To answer your query, I will bring in the words of Tathagata himself, because I cannot improve on the Sage's answer. An excerpt related to Tissa-Metteyya sutta from Sutta Nipata. Scholars claim this belongs to a most ancient part of the canon
The Way to the beyond
In the "Questions of Metteyya""
having understood both ends,
the wise one does not stick in the middle,
I call him a great man, 
he has here transcended the seamstress
A later sutta in Anguttara Nikaya elaborates on the above, an excerpt
what friends, is the first end?
what is the second end? 
What is the middle?
And what is the seamstress?"
contact friends is one end,
the arising of contact is the second,
 
the cessation of contact is in the middle; and craving is the seamstress.
For craving sews one to the production of this or that existence.
It is in this way that a bhikkhu directly knows what should be directly known,
fully understand what should be directly understood; and by doing so, in this very life he makes an end to suffering
 
Regarding your question
are we to stop making contact?
my understanding is that as long as we have eye, ear, nose, tongue, tactility, mind, and life principle, contact
is unavoidable with corresponding objects of sensory world. 

However through diligent practice of 4 establishments of mindfulness (in the first establishment one guards bodily contacts via eye, ear etc, i.e. sensory restraint) and the practice of buddhist jhanas, (in the first jhana one restrains the sensory world, and such contacts).
Practicing so, one trains the mind to eliminate craving. 
Once craving is eliminated, any contact made by any sense organ becomes a futile contact, and there ends Dependent origination for that person, hence, gain of liberation, or freedom from suffering.
thepea also said 
Are we not to stop reacting to these sense contact and remain equanimous? 
I hope the answer to the first question, took care of the answer to the second, thepea.
if the above answer is not clear, pl ask for clarification, I will try my best. :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pulsar
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by Pulsar » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:32 pm

Cappuccino wrote
to cease contact just don't touch
Quite so. :heart:

Chat2enlighten
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by Chat2enlighten » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:05 pm

Consciousness turns back and does not go beyond name and form.
What does this mean?
Why is consciousness condition for name and form? In other words without consciousness there is no name and form either.
Why is that?
In Teaching all it matters is definition. We need to clarify each word that came out of Buddha's mouth.
Buddha retrospectively investigated the cause of life and death. He found out it matters only when self was involved in death
because nobody cares if a tree falls down somewhere in a mountain, which means death to a tree.
Without any trouble He could see death was caused because one was born. If one had not been born one would have never died in the first place.
Ok. That's fine. Any layperson can see that too. The problem starts from here on. What causes birth? To modern people it is their parents.
To Buddha it is bhava or becoming. From this on all kinds of inference, imagination, and conjecture arise. At least to me it does.
What is bhava? Is it something transmigrating from previous life? The Sutta is silent on this. We don't exactly know what that is.
But at least bhava is not visible or touchable. It is immaterial. Yeah we can't see or touch it. It is then beyond our direct knowledge.
Anyways something called bhava causes birth to everyone. My bhava? Your bhava? Their bhava? We have to be very careful from this point.
Buddha further investigated to find out attachment brought about bhava. Are we talking about sometime before we were born?
Wait a minute! What is the benefit of guessing what happened before we were born? Do you remember the simile of poisoned arrow?
The shot one rejected to be treated before he found the shooter and so on and so. Is DO explaining what is happening to one before birth?
Is bhava something already there before birth? I clearly doubt it! We were not invited to Buddha to be advised about something beyond our
direct knowledge. Then what is better of being a Buddhist than believing in monotheism God?
My point is DO should be approached by here and now point of view.
Coming back to the question why does consciousness not go beyond name and form? I think the answer is it could but it didn't.
Or to be more specific it doesn't know how to.
As long as name and form is mine and I possess them why would I renounce them and leave them?
Said so Buddha found out it was this ignorance and craving for I, me, and myself which long for lasting forever.
And bhava is just nickname of this I, me and myself and nothing more.
Did I deny samsara or rebirth? I just said it belonged to beyond my direct knowledge. I see DO here and now as the manual to look up
to analyse how suffering is created.

ToVincent
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by ToVincent » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:04 pm

Note: grammar pundits needed.
Could chuḍ act as substantive?


Paccudāvattati
"Cover forth", as obstructing ?

________________________

Although "pracchuḍ" appears only in post-Buddhist Sanskrit litterature, a feasible compiled version of pra-chuḍ-ā-vartati (√ vṛt,) could have the following meaning - and be more accurate than the PTS interpretation of paṭi-ud-ā-vattati.

Sandhi: (workable, although not existing in the pre-Buddhist "Sanskrit" litterature).
=
pracchuḍāvartati

::::::::::::::
Pra:
::::::::::::::

प्र pra

- before, forward , in front , on , forth.

- as a prefix to subst. = forth , away cf. [ pra-vṛtti ]


:::::::::::::::
chuḍ
:::::::::::::::

√ छुड् chuḍ vario lectio for √ thuḍ; (cf. pra-).

√ थुड् thuḍ
- to cover Dhātup.


:::::::::::::::::
आ ā
::::::::::::::::

(As a prefix to verbs( , especially of motion , and their derivatives (less probable, in our case).
- near , near to , towards.

(After a subst. or adj.) " as , like " , (or it simply strengthens the sense of the preceding word) RV., (after a verb) RV.

(As a conjunctive particle) moreover , further , and (it is placed between the two words connected ( rarely after the second) RV.


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
vartati (√ vṛt)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


As Root: (in our case)
-------------

√ वृत् vṛt

- surrounding , enclosing , obstructing RV.


As Noun: (less probable)
---------------

वृत् vṛt ( only ifc.)
- turning , moving , existing.


____________

Note that even if vṛt (Sanskrit= vartati / Pali=vattati) is not a noun in our case, the magic of Sanskrit does operate, by still having the underlying meaning of [consciousness ] "turning back" (going back to a previous state, regress [viz namarupa] ) - because of this covering and obstructing [of consciousness].


An old note (still reliable):
https://justpaste.it/1bzye
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

Dinsdale
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Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:27 am

It sounds like the result of guarding the senses, not getting drawn in, not attaching.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

ToVincent
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Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by ToVincent » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:53 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:27 am
It sounds like the result of guarding the senses, not getting drawn in, not attaching.
Which is exactly the contrary of what it is supposed to be.

In fact, it is because one does not guard the senses, that there is a "satta's namarupa" (namely contact, appropriated feeling, perception, manasikāra and cetana (viz. manosañcetana), that leads to the process of the maintenance of a "covered" and "obstructed" consciousness - which in turn, leads to a regress towards the Namarupa nidāna's namarupa (viz. the khandhas).
(see previous post)

In other words, and to make it simple, it is because one DOES NOT guard the senses, that there is manosañcetana and consequently, the maintenance of a "veiled" consciouness.
Because the consciouness is "covered" (veiled), and does not allow to go further (viz. towards the sankhara nidāna), it regresses towards the Namarupa nidāna - in a "vicious type of circling path".

Because of the "veiling" (covering) of consciousness, due to satta's namarupa's obstruction, consciousness regresses and establishes itself one more time, back in Namarupa nidāna.


https://justpaste.it/1bzye
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

Dinsdale
Posts: 6813
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: What it means by "consciousness turn back"?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:53 am

ToVincent wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:53 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:27 am
It sounds like the result of guarding the senses, not getting drawn in, not attaching.
Which is exactly the contrary of what it is supposed to be.

In fact, it is because one does not guard the senses, that there is a "satta's namarupa" (namely contact, appropriated feeling, perception, manasikāra and cetana (viz. manosañcetana), that leads to the process of the maintenance of a "covered" and "obstructed" consciousness - which in turn, leads to a regress towards the Namarupa nidāna's namarupa (viz. the khandhas).
(see previous post)

In other words, and to make it simple, it is because one DOES NOT guard the senses, that there is manosañcetana and consequently, the maintenance of a "veiled" consciouness.
Because the consciouness is "covered" (veiled), and does not allow to go further (viz. towards the sankhara nidāna), it regresses towards the Namarupa nidāna - in a "vicious type of circling path".

Because of the "veiling" (covering) of consciousness, due to satta's namarupa's obstruction, consciousness regresses and establishes itself one more time, back in Namarupa nidāna.


https://justpaste.it/1bzye
.
.
I was thinking of the approach in the suttas, eg in SN35.95:

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.95/en/bodhi
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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