Is there a being?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
pegembara
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Re: Is there a being?

Post by pegembara »

The one who asks this is indeed a "being" just like asking "Who am I?" The question already answers itself!
The seeker is trying to get from beingness to non-being.
"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. If one were to ask, 'Which aging & death? And whose is this aging & death?' and if one were to ask, 'Is aging & death one thing, and is this the aging & death of someone/something else?' both of them would have the same meaning, even though their words would differ. When there is the view that the soul is the same as the body, there isn't the leading of the holy life. And when there is the view that the soul is one thing and the body another, there isn't the leading of the holy life. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata points out the Dhamma in between: From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Imagine you own a very valuable jewel which is so valuable that you place your trust in it so that should you fall upon hard times, it will look after you. It's so valuable that you can have it as your security. You don't trust anybody. So you have a safe inside your house and that is where you put your jewel. Now you have been working hard for a number of years and you think you deserve a holiday. So now, what to do with the jewel? Obviously you cannot take it with you on your seaside holiday. So you buy new locks for the doors to your house and you bar your windows and you alert your neighbors. You tell them about the proposed holiday and ask them to look after you house -- and the safe in it. And they say they will, of course. You should be quite at ease and so you go off on your holiday.

You go to the beach, and it's wonderful. Marvelous. The palm trees are swaying in the wind, and the spot you've chosen on the beach is nice and clean. The waves are warm and it's all lovely. The first day you really enjoy yourself. But on the second day you begin to wonder; the neighbors are very nice people, but they do go and visit their children. They are not always at home, and lately there has been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood. And on the third day you've convinced yourself that something dreadful is going to happen, and you go back home. You walk in and open the safe. Everything is all right. You go over to the neighbors and they ask, "Why did you come back? We were looking after your place. You didn't have to come back. Everything is fine."

The next year, the same thing. Again you tell the neighbors, "Now this time I am really going to stay away for a month. I need this holiday as I've been working hard." So they say, "Absolutely no need to worry, just take off. Go to the beach." So once more you bar the windows, lock the doors, get everything shipshape, and take off for the beach. Again, it's wonderful, beautiful. This time you last for five days. On the fifth day you are convinced that something dreadful must have happened. And you go home. You go home, and by golly, it has. The jewel is gone. You are in a state of complete collapse. Total desperation. Depressed. So you go to the neighbors, but they have no idea what has happened. they've been around all the time. Then you sit and consider the matter and you realize that since the jewel is gone, you might as well go back to the beach and enjoy yourself!

That jewel is self. Once it is gone, all the burden of looking after it, all the fears about it, all the barring of doors and windows and heart and mind is no longer necessary. You can just go and enjoy yourself while you're still in this body. After proper investigation, the frightening aspect of losing this thing that seemed so precious turns out to be the only relief and release from worry that there is.
https://mettlodgeeventsblog.blogspot.co ... -talk.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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DooDoot
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Re: Is there a being?

Post by DooDoot »

justindesilva wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:12 am The " becoming " mentioned here is bhava in paticca samuppada. Bhava is only a temporary stage of the process of dependant origination.
My understanding is the word "paticcasamuppada" means "dependent-co-arising'. In other words, all 12 conditions arise together to produce sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, despair & suffering. In other words, when there is dependent co-origination actually occurring, becoming is always a permanently existing causal factor, similar to a twelve storey building, in which each storey or floor supports the existence of the building. The "bhava" remains existing in each arising until the bottom floor (of ignorance) is blown up in a controlled demolition. Then all 12 storey of the building collapse.

There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
justindesilva
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Re: Is there a being?

Post by justindesilva »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:08 am
justindesilva wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:12 am The " becoming " mentioned here is bhava in paticca samuppada. Bhava is only a temporary stage of the process of dependant origination.
My understanding is the word "paticcasamuppada" means "dependent-co-arising'. In other words, all 12 conditions arise together to produce sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, despair & suffering. In other words, when there is dependent co-origination actually occurring, becoming is always a permanently existing causal factor, similar to a twelve storey building, in which each storey or floor supports the existence of the building. The "bhava" remains existing in each arising until the bottom floor (of ignorance) is blown up in a controlled demolition. Then all 12 storey of the building collapse.

With due respect to your explanation bhava too in DO is an impermanence. It is a continuation of a being but with impermanence. Upadana paccaya bhavo means that bhava depends on clinging which is upto a being to change by kusal.
In fact we belong to kama bhava ( the realm of sensual desires) which too is an impernanent form of existence.
auto
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Re: Is there a being?

Post by auto »

pegembara wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:18 am The one who asks this is indeed a "being" just like asking "Who am I?" The question already answers itself!
The seeker is trying to get from beingness to non-being.
.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]
.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"One sees with right discernment, lord, that 'this has come into being.' Seeing with right discernment that 'this has come into being,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what has come into being...…………...This is how one is a learner
Learner is able to see or discern what has come to be, there is different term for it than satta, because one isn't caught up.
One sees with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment.' Seeing with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of the nutriment by which it has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation.'
in short, cessation of nutriment then what has come to be is subject to cessation. Arising and passing away.

Idea is to fathom the dhamma and understand the arising and passing away, impermanence. So that you can get released from what is subject to cessation.. its not worth to cling on.
--
I think its not about finding out the truth of "self not exist", its more like finding better more lasting thing to be dependent on and so on.

Ayya Khema:
Ayya Khema wrote:Dhamma must have as its base the understanding that there is no special entity. There is continuity, but there is no special entity. And that continuity is what makes it so difficult for us to see that there really isn't anybody inside the body making things happen.
I think that view is wrong. It doesn't make you a better person depending on better things. Like some think i don't have self but i still identify like i go to shop to buy milk but its not self there actually... How's that kind of thinking develop your mind?

Ayya Khema:
Ayya Khema wrote:So we can be quite accepting of the fact that since we are not arahats, we still have greed and hate. It isn't a matter of blaming oneself for having them: it's a matter of understanding where these come from. They come from the delusion of me.
Nope. Sutta says something about "thinking about khandhas are not self". Not about Truth that there is no self. Popular budhism seem to be different than Sutta.
pegembara
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Re: Is there a being?

Post by pegembara »

auto wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:29 pm
Idea is to fathom the dhamma and understand the arising and passing away, impermanence. So that you can get released from what is subject to cessation.. its not worth to cling on.
--
I think its not about finding out the truth of "self not exist", its more like finding better more lasting thing to be dependent on and so on.

Agreed. Whatever is subject to cessation is not worth clinging to. The only dependable is the unconditioned/nibbana. And yes, it is about realising that the "self" that needs protection doesn't exist. That "self" is a convenient fiction.

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Ayya Khema:
Ayya Khema wrote:Dhamma must have as its base the understanding that there is no special entity. There is continuity, but there is no special entity. And that continuity is what makes it so difficult for us to see that there really isn't anybody inside the body making things happen.
I think that view is wrong. It doesn't make you a better person depending on better things. Like some think i don't have self but i still identify like i go to shop to buy milk but its not self there actually... How's that kind of thinking develop your mind?

Disagree. "You" stop being better, equal or worse. There is no "person" to improve on. Just the five aggregates without clinging are left.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.48/en/sujato

Ayya Khema:
Ayya Khema wrote:So we can be quite accepting of the fact that since we are not arahats, we still have greed and hate. It isn't a matter of blaming oneself for having them: it's a matter of understanding where these come from. They come from the delusion of me.
Nope. Sutta says something about "thinking about khandhas are not self". Not about Truth that there is no self. Popular budhism seem to be different than Sutta.

Disagree. It is the full realisation that the khandhas are not self and what follows is the knowledge that the permanent "self" doesn't exist, popular Buddhism notwithstanding.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
auto
Posts: 1723
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Is there a being?

Post by auto »

pegembara wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:52 am Disagree. It is the full realisation that the khandhas are not self and what follows is the knowledge that the permanent "self" doesn't exist, popular Buddhism notwithstanding.
Someone with the right view should see what is produced(jātī) is from an existence(bhava), not yours na meso attā’ti(sn22.59) - without your self.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.59/en/sujato wrote:Seeing this, a learned noble disciple grows disillusioned with form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.
form, feeling.. are kāya what sense organ consciousness knows. The disciple or person grows disillusioned and then can work on clearing cetana(heart) from fetter of 'this is my self' what has been engulfing the heart so far.
pegembara wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:52 am Disagree. "You" stop being better, equal or worse. There is no "person" to improve on. Just the five aggregates without clinging are left.
Experiences in sensual realm results in sense consciousness, what sees accordingly kāya(accumulation, heap) and then require specific care from your self so that you need make your own intent and do the chores to fulfill hearts desire, not free, being chained.
pegembara wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:52 am Agreed. Whatever is subject to cessation is not worth clinging to. The only dependable is the unconditioned/nibbana. And yes, it is about realising that the "self" that needs protection doesn't exist. That "self" is a convenient fiction.
Yes self doesn't exist - it is not produced by the existence. But that is not the case with the Self-deniers, they say self doesn't exist.
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