Is there a being?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
Posts: 13199
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Is there a being?

Post by SarathW » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:21 am

Is there a being?

Buddha taught emptiness (Anatta) and the existing being.
We had many discussions about this in the forum about this discrepancy.
In the following video (in Sinhalease language) Ven Gotama clears this doubt.
According to him what is exists is ignorance and due to that, we have the grasping. (upadana)
There is a being as far as there is Upadana. (Upadanaskanda) or Putujana
Arahants do not have the Upadanaskanda.
This matter is discussed in the following Sutta.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SteRo
Posts: 612
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Is there a being?

Post by SteRo » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:36 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:21 am
... According to him what is exists is ignorance and due to that, we have the grasping. (upadana)
Maybe that's grasping ignorance? ... the 'being-ness' of ignorance ... ? Of course these might be just my ignorant thoughts ...

thepea
Posts: 1431
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Is there a being?

Post by thepea » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:34 pm

Yes.

confusedlayman
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Is there a being?

Post by confusedlayman » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:10 pm

SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:21 am
Is there a being?

Buddha taught emptiness (Anatta) and the existing being.
We had many discussions about this in the forum about this discrepancy.
In the following video (in Sinhalease language) Ven Gotama clears this doubt.
According to him what is exists is ignorance and due to that, we have the grasping. (upadana)
There is a being as far as there is Upadana. (Upadanaskanda) or Putujana
Arahants do not have the Upadanaskanda.
This matter is discussed in the following Sutta.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


if there is a motor which converts mechanical energy in to electrical energy similarly brain gets information and tell body to move. its all conditioned response and no being to operate it. our body is just a process and no processor. there is no living thing in world. only process after process. difference between table and us? table can't move because not built in that way. imagine if table has wheels and due to wind it moves? table is not living things it moves due to force of wind. similarly, human body is acting by force and brain can chose the action depending on preference and sometimes automatic, so in visidhimigga its given those who see humans as living things are view of layman and foolish. but why we need metta? because aggregates got awareness and aggregates interacting with each other cause feelings which aggregates aim to get rid or want.
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

SarathW
Posts: 13199
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Is there a being?

Post by SarathW » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:21 pm

so in visidhimigga its given those who see humans as living things are view of layman and foolish.
I can't recall reading this. please provide the reference.
I feel that you have a wrong view except for the very last sentence that you accept beings are suffering.
We can't treat beings as physical objects.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

thepea
Posts: 1431
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Is there a being?

Post by thepea » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:22 pm

confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:10 pm
if there is a motor which converts mechanical energy in to electrical energy similarly brain gets information and tell body to move. its all conditioned response and no being to operate it. our body is just a process and no processor. there is no living thing in world. only process after process. difference between table and us? table can't move because not built in that way. imagine if table has wheels and due to wind it moves? table is not living things it moves due to force of wind. similarly, human body is acting by force and brain can chose the action depending on preference and sometimes automatic, so in visidhimigga its given those who see humans as living things are view of layman and foolish. but why we need metta? because aggregates got awareness and aggregates interacting with each other cause feelings which aggregates aim to get rid or want.
My being hurts after reading this.

confusedlayman
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Is there a being?

Post by confusedlayman » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:25 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:21 pm
so in visidhimigga its given those who see humans as living things are view of layman and foolish.
I can't recall reading this. please provide the reference.
I feel that you have a wrong view except for the very last sentence that you accept beings are suffering.
We can't treat beings as physical objects.
But when u analyse individual body parts there is no living thing in any parts and when they combine and work there is no production of living being. can you tell me how living being are living being? I read it long back and give me few hours ill go home and send the reference. but if u analyse body parts meditation u won't arrive at being anywhere instead just interaction of water, air, solid etc. yet aggregates produce feeling which that aggregates dont want hence compassion and Dhamma teaching is needed so aggregates dont suffer from ignorance of that aggregate.
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

justindesilva
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Is there a being?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:59 am

thepea wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:34 pm
Yes.
This "yes" can only be supported with paticca samuppada. The being here is nothing other than nama-rupa. It arises from the initial stage of avidya. Avidya paccaya sankara. Diffused mind owing to ignorance creates ( sankara) that causes nama - rupacognites with vingnana, which then causes salayatana paves the way to citta that arises and vanishes. Pancendriya thus in action causes upadana. As and when upadana arises the citta disappears causing bhava ( existence). While the being ( jati) continues towards jara marana citta that appeared before has vanished leaving way to new citta to form new kamma .

thepea
Posts: 1431
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Is there a being?

Post by thepea » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:10 am

justindesilva wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:59 am
thepea wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:34 pm
Yes.
This "yes" can only be supported with paticca samuppada. The being here is nothing other than nama-rupa. It arises from the initial stage of avidya. Avidya paccaya sankara. Diffused mind owing to ignorance creates ( sankara) that causes nama - rupacognites with vingnana, which then causes salayatana paves the way to citta that arises and vanishes. Pancendriya thus in action causes upadana. As and when upadana arises the citta disappears causing bhava ( existence). While the being ( jati) continues towards jara marana citta that appeared before has vanished leaving way to new citta to form new kamma .
Awareness aware of awareness=being/presence.

auto
Posts: 1280
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Is there a being?

Post by auto » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:01 pm

confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:25 pm
but if u analyse body parts meditation u won't arrive at being anywhere instead just interaction of water, air, solid etc.
Learn to make difference between knower and what is being known. Mental states are with a sense of awareness or seer.

You could specifically focus on the seer momentarily and cultivate this way till you can grasp the sense of self and focus on that till you can be it... There is a reason for it why to get this far, the place where the mental state gets established won't get established without you knowing about it and therefore can remove it.

auto
Posts: 1280
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Is there a being?

Post by auto » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:10 pm

SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:21 am
Arahants do not have the Upadanaskanda.
in a context of they don't need upadanakhandha to get rid of affliction. Really the sense of self is required for learners. I'm glad here is so many arhants talking about there is no self.

confusedlayman
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Is there a being?

Post by confusedlayman » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:06 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:01 pm
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:25 pm
but if u analyse body parts meditation u won't arrive at being anywhere instead just interaction of water, air, solid etc.
Learn to make difference between knower and what is being known. Mental states are with a sense of awareness or seer.

You could specifically focus on the seer momentarily and cultivate this way till you can grasp the sense of self and focus on that till you can be it... There is a reason for it why to get this far, the place where the mental state gets established won't get established without you knowing about it and therefore can remove it.
yes but holding on to awareness also cause pain. when I once fainted, I was anxious not to lose awareness but lost it and it was terrible. if I let go of awareness, I would have fainted without anxious. just saying that we shouldn't harm anyone because they all have awareness that can sense feeling but when they harm us, we should switch to no being so we dont create anger within ourself
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 6666
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Is there a being?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:27 pm

SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:21 am
Is there a being?

Buddha taught emptiness (Anatta) and the existing being.
Where? Where did the Buddha teach about a real "existing being"? I can't recall reading this. please provide the reference. Thanks
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:25 pm
so in visidhimigga its given those who see humans as living things are view of layman and foolish.
I can't recall reading this. please provide the reference.
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:25 pm
But when u analyse individual body parts there is no living thing in any parts
when I analyse body parts, they are not "a being" but they are "living"
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:25 pm
and when they combine and work there is no production of living being.
when they combine & work, they are "living"
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:25 pm
if u analyse body parts meditation u won't arrive at being anywhere instead just interaction of water, air, solid etc.
obviously, if the idea of "you" still arises & exists, that idea of "you" is "a being", as the Buddha taught
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:25 pm
yet aggregates produce feeling which that aggregates dont want hence compassion and Dhamma teaching is needed so aggregates dont suffer from ignorance of that aggregate.
Sorry but "only aggregates" do not suffer. Only "clinging-aggregates" or "beings" suffer (refer to SN 22.48). The suttas (MN 26) do not say the Buddha had compassion for suffering aggregates. The suttas (MN 26) say the Buddha had compassion for suffering "beings". The Buddha taught the suffering of the clinging-aggregates arises from craving leading to new becoming (SN 56.11). "Becoming" means the arising of the idea of "a being" (SN 23.2; SN 5.10) or "self-identity" (MN 44)
The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One.

MN 44

Then, understanding Brahmā’s invitation, I surveyed the world with the eye of a Buddha, because of my compassion for sentient beings.

Atha kho ahaṃ, bhikkhave, brahmuno ca ajjhesanaṃ viditvā sattesu ca kāruññataṃ paṭicca buddhacakkhunā lokaṃ volokesiṃ.

MN 26
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

confusedlayman
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Is there a being?

Post by confusedlayman » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:26 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:27 pm
SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:21 am
Is there a being?

Buddha taught emptiness (Anatta) and the existing being.
Where? Where did the Buddha teach about a real "existing being"? I can't recall reading this. please provide the reference. Thanks
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:25 pm
so in visidhimigga its given those who see humans as living things are view of layman and foolish.
I can't recall reading this. please provide the reference.
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:25 pm
But when u analyse individual body parts there is no living thing in any parts
when I analyse body parts, they are not "a being" but they are "living"
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:25 pm
and when they combine and work there is no production of living being.
when they combine & work, they are "living"
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:25 pm
if u analyse body parts meditation u won't arrive at being anywhere instead just interaction of water, air, solid etc.
obviously, if the idea of "you" still arises & exists, that idea of "you" is "a being", as the Buddha taught
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:25 pm
yet aggregates produce feeling which that aggregates dont want hence compassion and Dhamma teaching is needed so aggregates dont suffer from ignorance of that aggregate.
Sorry but "only aggregates" do not suffer. Only "clinging-aggregates" or "beings" suffer (refer to SN 22.48). The suttas (MN 26) do not say the Buddha had compassion for suffering aggregates. The suttas (MN 26) say the Buddha had compassion for suffering "beings". The Buddha taught the suffering of the clinging-aggregates arises from craving leading to new becoming (SN 56.11). "Becoming" means the arising of the idea of "a being" (SN 23.2; SN 5.10) or "self-identity" (MN 44)
The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One.

MN 44

Then, understanding Brahmā’s invitation, I surveyed the world with the eye of a Buddha, because of my compassion for sentient beings.

Atha kho ahaṃ, bhikkhave, brahmuno ca ajjhesanaṃ viditvā sattesu ca kāruññataṃ paṭicca buddhacakkhunā lokaṃ volokesiṃ.

MN 26
thanks
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

justindesilva
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Is there a being?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:12 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:25 pm
But when u analyse individual body parts there is no living thing in any parts
when I analyse body parts, they are not "a being" but
obviously, if the idea of "you" still arises & exists, that idea of "you" is "a
The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One.

MN 44

Then, understanding Brahmā’s invitation, I surveyed the world with the eye of a Buddha, because of my compassion for sentient beings.

Atha kho ahaṃ, bhikkhave, brahmuno ca ajjhesanaṃ viditvā sattesu ca kāruññataṃ paṭicca buddhacakkhunā lokaṃ volokesiṃ.

MN 26
[/quote]

The " becoming " mentioned here is bhava in paticca samuppada. Bhava is only a temporary stage of the process of dependant origination. Hence we cannot express being as a permanent self. But a temporary stage. Bhava can spread in to 31 planes one at a time of period.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MettaDevPrac, robertk, Sam Vara, SarathW and 52 guests