Page 1 of 2

Arahant or Rahat?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:49 am
by SarathW
In Sri Lanka, we use the word Rahath for an Arahant.
Are these the same meaning?

Re: Arahant or Rahat?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:08 am
by Aniccato
I’m not from Sri Lanka but here’s the best I got for ya.

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+does+rahat+mean+in+sinhalese

Re: Arahant or Rahat?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:42 pm
by Sam Vara
I'd be interested to hear where the term comes from. Arahati means "he deserves, he is worthy, he ought", which is where I believe the title Arahant comes from. I knew a Thai monk called Ajahn Rahat a couple of years ago. I didn't make the connection with the word then, but he was a very impressive individual!

Re: Arahant or Rahat?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:21 pm
by dhammacoustic
the term is very old , and it still exists in many languages.

in arabic, it was derived as ar-rahat, “ar” (روح ) meaning soul, and “rahat” (راحة)meaning breath. in turkish, rahat means “in peace” or “relaxed”. in hebrew, rahat (רַהַט) literally means “calm”.

in a book i read long ago , it said that during the buddha's time they pronounced it as “a-ra-ha”, which then meant “reached”, “gone to that” or simply “attained”..

Re: Arahant or Rahat?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:32 pm
by upekka
rahat and arahat both are the same.

Re: Arahant or Rahat?

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:39 am
by chownah
dhammacoustic wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:21 pm
the term is very old , and it still exists in many languages.

in arabic, it was derived as ar-rahat, “ar” (روح ) meaning soul, and “rahat” (راحة)meaning breath. in turkish, rahat means “in peace” or “relaxed”. in hebrew, rahat (רַהַט) literally means “calm”.

in a book i read long ago , it said that during the buddha's time they pronounced it as “a-ra-ha”, which then meant “reached”, “gone to that” or simply “attained”..
How is it possible to know how words were pronounced in the buddha's time?
chownah

Re: Arahant or Rahat?

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:49 pm
by binocular
chownah wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:39 am
How is it possible to know how words were pronounced in the buddha's time?
Search for "historical phonology".
E.g.
https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10 ... 0199232819

Re: Arahant or Rahat?

Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:43 am
by chownah
binocular wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:49 pm
chownah wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:39 am
How is it possible to know how words were pronounced in the buddha's time?
Search for "historical phonology".
E.g.
https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10 ... 0199232819
No thanks. I just want to know how it is possible to know how words were pronounced in the buddha's time and if there is a way to know then a few sentences would be sufficient to outline how it is done....and if a few sentences are not enough then a few sentences should be enough to show me that investing my time would yield a further explanation.
chownah

Re: Arahant or Rahat?

Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:52 am
by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
SarathW wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:49 am
In Sri Lanka, we use the word Rahath for an Arahant.
Are these the same meaning?
In Burmese, "Ra-Han-Tar" means an Arahant.

:heart:

Re: Arahant or Rahat?

Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:17 pm
by dhammacoustic
chownah wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:39 am
How is it possible to know how words were pronounced in the buddha's time?
chownah
apologies for the delayed response , the book didn't really say anything about it but there were citations i think (i remember reading about some other pronounciations other than araha as well) , as far as i know ancient prakrits are quite studied in historical linguistics , perhaps there are some methodologies to reconstruct the pronunciations.

Re: Arahant or Rahat?

Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:08 am
by chownah
dhammacoustic wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:17 pm
chownah wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:39 am
How is it possible to know how words were pronounced in the buddha's time?
chownah
apologies for the delayed response , the book didn't really say anything about it but there were citations i think (i remember reading about some other pronounciations other than araha as well) , as far as i know ancient prakrits are quite studied in historical linguistics , perhaps there are some methodologies to reconstruct the pronunciations.
I can not even imagine a way that this could be done (outside of the realm of science fiction or recollection of past lives). Just think about it....how could we know?
I think this unsubstatiated claim cast some doubts as to the abilities of this book to present what is realistic.
chownah
edit: after thinking about this and looking at your post which ellicited my comment I think that it is possible for the cadence of a pronunciation to be somewhat reliably assumed from certain types of ancient literatures and perhaps that is what the book was referring to.
chownah

Re: Arahant or Rahat?

Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:54 am
by Dhammanando
chownah wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:08 am
Just think about it....how could we know?
Linguist David Crystal on how we can know how Shakespeare's language was originally pronounced.

.


With dead languages matters are a little trickier and the results a great deal less certain, but it's still possible to arrive at a ballpark approximation.

An old Reddit thread on the subject:

https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/com ... nded_like/

Re: Arahant or Rahat?

Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:21 am
by Srilankaputra
Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:54 am
chownah wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:08 am
Just think about it....how could we know?
Linguist David Crystal on how we can know how Shakespeare's language was originally pronounced.

.


With dead languages matters are a little trickier and the results a great deal less certain, but it's still possible to arrive at a ballpark approximation.

An old Reddit thread on the subject:

https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/com ... nded_like/
Bhante,

How close do you think the current pronunciation of pali to the original?

Re: Arahant or Rahat?

Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:35 am
by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:52 am
SarathW wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:49 am
In Sri Lanka, we use the word Rahath for an Arahant.
Are these the same meaning?
In Burmese, "Ra-Han-Tar" means an Arahant.

:heart:
And, in Burmese, "Ra-Han" means "an ordained monk".

:heart:

Re: Arahant or Rahat?

Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:06 am
by Dhammanando
Srilankaputra wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:21 am
Bhante,

How close do you think the current pronunciation of pali to the original?
Assuming that the phonetic descriptions given in the ancient Pali grammars are correct, then the modern way of pronunciation that comes closest to this is that of Indian and Bangladeshi bhikkhus. Typically they'll get all the sounds correct except the palatals ca and ja.

After the Indians the next best are the Sinhalese. Their main mistake is either to fail to aspirate the aspirated consonants (e.g., dha as da, ṭha as ṭa) or to hypercorrect by pronouncing non-aspirates as aspirates, e.g., mettā as metthā.

As for modern SE Asian ways of pronunciation, these are all very poor, with at least half of the consonants mispronounced. The pronunciation of the Thais and Cambodians is about equally bad; that of the Laotians is a bit worse and that of the Burmese the worst of all.

The typical pronunciation of an English-speaking Western bhikkhu will contain about the same number of mistakes as that of the Thais. Our main ones are not bothering to distinguish retroflex and dental consonants, but realizing both types as alveolars, aspirating ka, ta and pa, incorrect syllabification when a vagga consonant is followed by an avagga, turning doubled consonants into single ones (e.g., dhammaŋ as /damaŋ/), and turning the vowel in unstressed syllables into a schwa (e.g., a British Buddhist will probably pronounce buddha as /'budə/, while an American will do so as /'būdə/).