Insights cannot be discuss

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form
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Insights cannot be discuss

Post by form » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:11 am

Is that true?

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Dhammanando
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Re: Insights cannot be discuss

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:15 pm

form wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:11 am
Is that true?
It's a little too vague to be able to declare it true or false. To be more specific:

If the insight amounts to an ariyan attainment, e.g., stream-entry, and if the attainer is a bhikkhu, then it can't be made known to an unordained person.

Whether the insight is a low- or a high-level one, if the attainer is not ordained then the texts don't impose any limitation on declaring it or discussing it. However, some meditation teachers and traditions have their own rules or advisories, usually counseling the exercise of discretion in this matter.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Bundokji
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Re: Insights cannot be discuss

Post by Bundokji » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:28 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:15 pm
If the insight amounts to an ariyan attainment, e.g., stream-entry, and if the attainer is a bhikkhu, then it can't be made known to an unordained person.
I can understand why revealing or showing psychic power is forbidden, but why a verbal description of insight would be?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Alīno
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Re: Insights cannot be discuss

Post by Alīno » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:01 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:28 pm
I can understand why revealing or showing psychic power is forbidden, but why a verbal description of insight would be?
I think because people are not free from greed hatred and delusion, there may be temptation to lie or overestimata some event. It can become a source of greed, hatred and delusion to others (jalousy etc) so less harmony in the comunity, also it can becoma a source of suffering for one who consider himself to be someone, but that after sometime he understands that actualy he is not... It can break one's mind, split one's head... There is meter of respect to the Dhamma too...
Also i think that only Stream entry can be easily declared by someone, becaus even if there is realisation of 3 characteristics, its said that Stream Entry is a fruit of awareness, attention, but fruits of Sakadagami or Anagami, even more for the Arahanship are fruits of effort, of hard work, so i think that those who realised these fruits know how much its a hard work, so they are "humbeled" by it, and know that even if he will declare it to others, not so many will be able to do this work, so its useless to them... Like some old veteran dont want to talk about all suffering and struggles he endured to win this or that battle, but he know how many are died during this battle... So maybe Stream Entry is much more easy to declare, because often, while conditions are there, a pracitioner just make a sudden realisation, it's something completey NEW for him, he never realised it, so he is happy to talk abut it, and try to inspire others, to tell them the truth !!!! Show the way... But it's said that higher fruits are much more refined, not so "dramatic" and "powerfull" as the Change of the Lineage... So many of great masters like Ajahn Mun or Ajahn Chah passed some years observing their minds, to be sure that there is no mistake and fetters are realy broken...

It's just my opinion, interpretation, perception... I can mistake of corse :anjali:
Upāsaka Alīno - free from attachement and desire, undettered, one who perseveres, one who never gives up..._/\_

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Dhammanando
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Re: Insights cannot be discuss

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:11 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:28 pm
I can understand why revealing or showing psychic power is forbidden, but why a verbal description of insight would be?
In the origin story to the rule the concern seems to be that if such declarations were permitted, then monks would make them for the sake of their livelihood.

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-pc8/en/brahmali
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Bundokji
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Re: Insights cannot be discuss

Post by Bundokji » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:25 pm

Nwad wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:01 pm
I think because people are not free from greed hatred and delusion, there may be temptation to lie or overestimata some event. It can become a source of greed, hatred and delusion to others (jalousy etc) so less harmony in the comunity, also it can becoma a source of suffering for one who consider himself to be someone, but that after sometime he understands that actualy he is not... It can break one's mind, split one's head... There is meter of respect to the Dhamma too...
Also i think that only Stream entry can be easily declared by someone, becaus even if there is realisation of 3 characteristics, its said that Stream Entry is a fruit of awareness, attention, but fruits of Sakadagami or Anagami, even more for the Arahanship are fruits of effort, of hard work, so i think that those who realised these fruits know how much its a hard work, so they are "humbeled" by it, and know that even if he will declare it to others, not so many will be able to do this work, so its useless to them... Like some old veteran dont want to talk about all suffering and struggles he endured to win this or that battle, but he know how many are died during this battle... So maybe Stream Entry is much more easy to declare, because often, while conditions are there, a pracitioner just make a sudden realisation, it's something completey NEW for him, he never realised it, so he is happy to talk abut it, and try to inspire others, to tell them the truth !!!! Show the way... But it's said that higher fruits are much more refined, not so "dramatic" and "powerfull" as the Change of the Lineage... So many of great masters like Ajahn Mun or Ajahn Chah passed some years observing their minds, to be sure that there is no mistake and fetters are realy broken...

It's just my opinion, interpretation, perception... I can mistake of corse :anjali:
Thanks Nwad for your interpretation :anjali:

What i find difficult to understand about the rule mentioned by Ven Dhammanando is that the rule forbids a monk to talk about insight to lay practitioners. While on average monastics are more virtuous and wise than lay people, the criteria is not based on the individual but on the label. For instance, in the rare case of a virtuous lay practitioner, he/she might benefit from some descriptions more than a corrupt monk.

Are these privileges designed to encourage serious lay practitioners to become monastics?

I also encountered stories that advanced practitioners have some kind of intuitive knowledge about each other even if they have not met in person. If i remember correctly, when Ajahn Chah went to meet Ajahn Mun, Ajahn Mun knew that Ajahn Chah was coming to meet him according to his biography by Ajahn Jayasaro. It seems that those venerables have developed many abilities that cannot be comprehended by the ordinary mind.

I also remember one member of this forum mentioning "guarding the signs" through not talking about them. Maybe some believe that talking about certain insights can have detrimental effects on developing them further.

P.S: I ve read Ven. Dhammanando's answer to my question after i completed the post, but i will keep it as it is. Thanks Bhante :anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

form
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Re: Insights cannot be discuss

Post by form » Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:55 am

Can insights be classified as mundane and supramundane? If can. Mundane insights will be about karma. Supramundane insights will be about four noble truths. Both will be very hard to discuss freely unless talking with very fixed terms and fixed concept that are parroting directly from the suttas. I would think genuine insights process are not likely to appear in such a rigid manner.

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Re: Insights cannot be discuss

Post by Laurens » Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:13 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:28 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:15 pm
If the insight amounts to an ariyan attainment, e.g., stream-entry, and if the attainer is a bhikkhu, then it can't be made known to an unordained person.
I can understand why revealing or showing psychic power is forbidden, but why a verbal description of insight would be?
I think it's pretty obvious.

I am an arahant...

...I'm actually not of course. But I can say it if I want to. If I said it often enough with enough confidence, certain people might start to believe me. I could then use this to teach my own personal opinions as Dhamma or abuse my status as a perceived guru to my own ends (which happens all the time).

Prohibiting claims of this kind means that a monks teachings have to be taken on their merit alone, and this ought to be the measure of any teacher (in any walk of life) rather than what they claim to have attained.

It's also probably one of the wisest rules in terms of preventing the Sangha from falling apart. We will always get some level of sectarianism, but can you imagine how confusing and divisive things would get if each subsect was headed by someone claiming to be an arahant and therefore correct...
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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Bundokji
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Re: Insights cannot be discuss

Post by Bundokji » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:35 am

Laurens wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:13 am
I think it's pretty obvious.

I am an arahant...

...I'm actually not of course. But I can say it if I want to. If I said it often enough with enough confidence, certain people might start to believe me. I could then use this to teach my own personal opinions as Dhamma or abuse my status as a perceived guru to my own ends (which happens all the time).

Prohibiting claims of this kind means that a monks teachings have to be taken on their merit alone, and this ought to be the measure of any teacher (in any walk of life) rather than what they claim to have attained.

It's also probably one of the wisest rules in terms of preventing the Sangha from falling apart. We will always get some level of sectarianism, but can you imagine how confusing and divisive things would get if each subsect was headed by someone claiming to be an arahant and therefore correct...
Hello Laurens,

The issue can be approached through practicle reasons such as the ones you mentioned, and it can be for mystical reasons. A mystical reason is based on the individual being an integral part of the law. For instance, psychic powers defy the laws of physics as we know them. It is quite possible that those who attained more refined perceptions or gone beyond perceptions altogether are able to know and do things we cannot do or know. I am not sure if this could be a part of a hidden criteria of what should be revealed to which mind, but there can be a totally different hierarchical structure than the one structured by society based on mystical knowledge or insight.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

form
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Re: Insights cannot be discuss

Post by form » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:15 am

I suspect different people have different definition of insight. Prior to rereading the book the noble eightfold path written by bhikkhu bodhi yesterday, i realise I got the definition wrongly from a regular learner English dictionary previously.

binocular
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Re: Insights cannot be discuss

Post by binocular » Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:26 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:28 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:15 pm
If the insight amounts to an ariyan attainment, e.g., stream-entry, and if the attainer is a bhikkhu, then it can't be made known to an unordained person.
I can understand why revealing or showing psychic power is forbidden, but why a verbal description of insight would be?
Some 99% of the time, it's useless to discuss one's insights with other people, it doesn't even matter what those insights are about. That's because people are for the most part too different to understand eachother anyway. (Yes, I see the irony of saying this on an internet forum.)

- - -
Laurens wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:13 am
It's also probably one of the wisest rules in terms of preventing the Sangha from falling apart. We will always get some level of sectarianism, but can you imagine how confusing and divisive things would get if each subsect was headed by someone claiming to be an arahant and therefore correct...
But members of each group at least quietly assume themselves to be more advanced than others anyway, and at least quietly assume that their teacher is more advanced than other teachers. Why else would they be in that group, under that teacher, if they don't believe in that group's and that teacher's superiority? Have you ever met anyone who would say something to the effect of, "Oh, my teacher isn't enlightened, and I know there are better ones than he is, but I'm sticking with him anyway"?

To me, it makes not much difference if a person makes a claim about their attainment or not. I say, Bring it on! If someone declares their attainment, then, to me, this is just an invitation to test them.

On the other hand, when a spiritual/religious person gets too bossy toward me, I summon them to declare their attainment. It's an effective way to make them shut up and stop bothering me, or it resets the interaction. It's interesting how many people tend to find it offensive when they are summoned to declare their attainment, while they don't find it offensive to assume having such attainment while not having it.

If one has the attainment, why not declare it truthfully when questioned about it directly?

If one doesn't have the attainment, why expect from others the kind of respect and trust that would be appropriate only toward someone who has that attainment?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Insights cannot be discuss

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:07 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:11 pm
Bundokji wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:28 pm
I can understand why revealing or showing psychic power is forbidden, but why a verbal description of insight would be?
In the origin story to the rule the concern seems to be that if such declarations were permitted, then monks would make them for the sake of their livelihood.

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-pc8/en/brahmali
Bundokji wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:25 pm
If i remember correctly, when Ajahn Chah went to meet Ajahn Mun, Ajahn Mun knew that Ajahn Chah was coming to meet him according to his biography by Ajahn Jayasaro.
Therefore, what about monks telling laypeople another monk, such as their teacher, has psychic powers? Surely, such declarations could be made for the sake of their livelihood? :?:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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2600htz
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Re: Insights cannot be discuss

Post by 2600htz » Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:33 pm

Hello

I might be wrong, but i think monks can discuss insights with lay people, as long as they dont make it personal.

A) "when you get to the first jhana your body feels light, you feel uplifted, your awareness is good."

B) "I can get many attainments, i can get in and out of the first jhana, i can sit for hours, i can read minds, etc."

In the first case the monk could be talking about the experience of another, some sutta interpretation, some book, etc.

Regards.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Insights cannot be discuss

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:53 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:07 pm
Therefore, what about monks telling laypeople another monk, such as their teacher, has psychic powers? Surely, such declarations could be made for the sake of their livelihood? :?:
Indeed. A peculiarity of this rule, along with the fourth pārājika, is that it doesn't prohibit the very behaviour that led to its promulgation.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
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Re: Insights cannot be discuss

Post by sentinel » Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:42 pm

In the meditation retreat , when there is individual interview , at that time there is possibility of revealing the insight by participants and also the teacher may verify your experience therefore indirectly admitting his/her own attainment .
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