looking for citation, pīti and sukha of 4 jhānas compared to dying of thirst, seeing water in distance, and drinking it

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frank k
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Re: looking for citation, pīti and sukha of 4 jhānas compared to dying of thirst, seeing water in distance, and drinking

Post by frank k » Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:56 pm

I haven't looked at the entire Vism. quote in pali for the lotus simile, but from what's there, the Vism. and Atthasalani look to be quite different. In the Vism., it's saying the sukha is happening while one is participating with the water, whereas the Atthasalani is saying the sukha is the mental pleasure of reflecting after having participated in drinking/bathing in the water.

Not a bald assertion at all.
Regarding the famous 4 jhana similes (AN 5.28, DN2, etc), why do you think it's not in the Vism.? Because the suttas and the COMMENTARIES explicitly say it's a physical body of flesh, blood, skin. It's the SUBCOMMENTARIES that Buddhaghosa uses to justify the rupa being affected by the mental pleasure of their redefined jhana. It's criminal to deliberately contradict the earlier commentary, the straightforward EBT reading of AN 5.28, KN Peta, etc. Vism. Redefinition Jhana is a completely different samadhi training system. This is not debatable.

(regarding the Ab Vb awakening factors) There's no other reason to differentiate between kaya and citta (and/or rupa, mano) except to differentiate between physical body and mind. It's done in the EBT, and it's done in the non-canonical scripture and Abhidhamma.
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... tween.html
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ween.html

I've also shown in another article the Ab. Vb jhana gloss is completely incomprehensible. 3rd jhana and 4th jhana sukha references, one refers to physical the other mental (according to abhdhamma). Does that sound to you like Buddhaghosa is being consistent in how he understands mental and physical?
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... loss.html

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:33 pm
frank k wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:54 pm
how does that simile make any sense then? if piti is mentally originated, sukha is mentally originated, then what's the point of trying to differentiate them?
Because they are two distinct dhammas that have distinct cognitive functions: one having to do with active interest, zest, anticipation, relish and suchlike towards a desirable ārammaṇa; the other passively enjoying the ārammaṇa. To confuse them is to not see things as they really are.
frank k wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:54 pm
the point of creating the simile is to help someone understand the difference between what parts of the four jhanas are physical and what parts are mentally originated.
That is what you may take to be its point, but your saying so above appears to be no more than a bald assertion. Moreover, it's a bald assertion that cannot possibly be faithful to the intended meaning of the framer of the simile. In the context of jhāna Buddhaghosa consistently takes kāya as referring to the body of mental factors.

As far as I know, the only exception to this is where he is explaining those sutta passages that speak of "suffusing one's whole body" with pīti and sukha. In this context kāya is taken as referring to one's physical frame, but it is also denied that it is pīti itself that suffuses the body. Since the physical locus of pīti and sukha is said to be the heart-base, they cannot literally suffuse the whole body and so the commentaries take the sutta as meaning that the body becomes suffused by mind-generated subtle rūpa dhammas that jhānic pīti and sukha generate.
frank k wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:54 pm
Te Ab Vb theravada abhidhamma vibhanga clearly states in 7sb awakening factors, under sutta method kaya is physical, under abhidhamma method it's collection of mental aggregates. And since the standard four jhana formula is sutta, then sutta method would take precedence.
The Vibhaṅga's Sutta analysis reads:
Tattha katamo passaddhisambojjhaṅgo? Atthi kāyapassaddhi, atthi cittapassaddhi. yadapi kāyapassaddhi tadapi passaddhisambojjhaṅgo abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati. Yadapi cittapassaddhi tadapi passaddhisambojjhaṅgo abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati.

Therein what is calmness-awakening-factor? There is calmness of the body; there is calmness of consciousness. That which is calmness of body, that calmness-awakening-factor is for full knowledge, for awakening, for full emancipation also. That which is calmness of consciousness; that calmness-awakening-factor is for full knowledge, for awakening, for full emancipation also.
Its Abhidhamma analysis reads:
Tattha katamo passaddhisambojjhaṅgo? Yā vedanākkhandhassa saññākkhandhassa saṅkhārakkhandhassa viññāṇakkhandhassa passaddhi paṭippassaddhi passambhanā paṭippassambhanā paṭippassambhitattaṃ passaddhisambojjhaṅgo: ayaṃ vuccati ‘passaddhisambojjhaṅgo’

Therein what is calmness-awakening-factor? That which of the aggregate of feeling, of the aggregate of perception, of the aggregate of volitional activities, of the aggregate of consciousness is calmness, serenity, being calm, being serene, state of being serene, calmness-awakening-factor. This is called calmness-awakening-factor.
Are these the passages you are referring to? If so, where in the first passage does it say that kāya means the physical body? The commentary doesn't define it so. In fact it repeats the Saṃyutta Commentary's definition that I quoted in my last post.
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frank k
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Re: looking for citation, pīti and sukha of 4 jhānas compared to dying of thirst, seeing water in distance, and drinking

Post by frank k » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:03 pm

Here's Bodhi's translation. The sukhino is referring to the person experiencing pleasure, it's not an adjective for citta.
“For one whose mind is uplifted by rapture the body becomes tranquil and the mind becomes tranquil. Whenever, bhikkhus, the body becomes tranquil and the mind becomes tranquil in a bhikkhu whose mind is uplifted by rapture, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of tranquillity is aroused by the bhikkhu; on that occasion the bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of tranquillity; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of tranquillity comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu. [69]

7“For one whose body is tranquil and who is happy the mind becomes concentrated.64 Whenever, bhikkhus, the mind becomes concentrated in a bhikkhu whose body is tranquil and who is happy, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of concentration is aroused by the bhikkhu; on that occasion the bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of concentration; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of concentration comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu.
ToVincent wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:56 pm
frank k wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:27 pm
pleasure (of the citta),
that part in parenthesis is your own interpolation.
No, that part refers to the next verse:
Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.
A sukhino citta becomes established.
.
.
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ToVincent
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Re: looking for citation, pīti and sukha of 4 jhānas compared to dying of thirst, seeing water in distance, and drinking

Post by ToVincent » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:32 pm

frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:03 pm
Here's Bodhi's translation. The sukhino is referring to the person experiencing pleasure, it's not an adjective for citta.
“For one whose mind is uplifted by rapture the body becomes tranquil and the mind becomes tranquil. Whenever, bhikkhus, the body becomes tranquil and the mind becomes tranquil in a bhikkhu whose mind is uplifted by rapture, on that occasion....
Well the sentence is:
Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.

I can hardly see how it can become - "... in a bhikkhu whose mind is uplifted by rapture" - without being very interpretative (I see no "in a bhikkhu" in there - no "uplifted" - nothing of a sort).

By the way, I am not a great fan of Bodhi's translations,; although I am very grateful to him.
A bhikkhu that translates both mano & citta as "mind" is very suspicious to me .

And anyway, in the case that we keep Bodhi's translation, what is "uplifted by" rapture: the "mind" (citta), or the bhikkhu?!?!?!

You're just eel-wriggling, Frank.

That's
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

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frank k
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Re: looking for citation, pīti and sukha of 4 jhānas compared to dying of thirst, seeing water in distance, and drinking

Post by frank k » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:00 pm

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.3/en/sujato
b.sujato has the same:
When the mind is full of rapture, the body and mind become tranquil.Pītimanassa kāyopi passambhati, cittampi passambhati.

At such a time, a mendicant has activated the awakening factor of tranquility; they develop it and perfect it.Yasmiṃ samaye, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno pītimanassa kāyopi passambhati cittampi passambhati, passaddhisambojjhaṅgo tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhuno āraddho hoti; passaddhisambojjhaṅgaṃ tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhu bhāveti; passaddhisambojjhaṅgo tasmiṃ samaye bhikkhuno bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchati.When the body is tranquil and one feels bliss, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi.Passaddhakāyassa sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.
sukha is not the adjective for citta in the 7sb awakening factor sequence, and you're the eel wriggler.
It's comical how often the offender of misdeed preemptively accuses the other party of their misdeed.
If I'm wrong, I'm going to admit I'm wrong, if I'm not sure, I'm going to say I'm not sure, but I have never eel wriggled.
One more ad hominem from you and you're joining my block list with the other time wasters.

ToVincent wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:32 pm
...
You're just eel-wriggling, Frank.
...
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Re: looking for citation, pīti and sukha of 4 jhānas compared to dying of thirst, seeing water in distance, and drinking

Post by ToVincent » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:20 am

frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:00 pm
sukha is not the adjective for citta in the 7sb awakening factor sequence, and you're the eel wriggler.
It's comical how often the offender of misdeed preemptively accuses the other party of their misdeed.
For your record, I would like to remind you that SN 46.3 does not have "50 other references", as you put it earlier - but only three, which are : SN 56.13, SN 56.16, & MN 118.

And for instance, in SN 56.13, we have 心悅 (the citta is pleased [悅 = sukha]) 、心定 (the citta is established).
I see no sukha of the kāya in that sutra.

If you were to do a more serious job on parallels, you wouldn't say so much buncombe.


May I also remind you that the pericope "that has many references" is:
Pītimanassa kāyo passambhati.
Passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vediyati.
Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.
Samāhite citte dhammā pātubhavanti.

See the last verse!
Samāhite citte
How would you explain that?

I expect you to come with some more lousy explanations; and to camp on your position for the future to come - without any scruple.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

frank k
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Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: looking for citation, pīti and sukha of 4 jhānas compared to dying of thirst, seeing water in distance, and drinking

Post by frank k » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:53 am

doing DPR search for: passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ returns (60 hits),
and that's under reporting due to elision from DN 3 to DN 13, among others most likely.
Using DN 2 as the standard for the sequence for passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ, it's obviously the same 7sb awakening sequence as SN 46.3 even with the very minor differences, and the same sequence as the slight variation as the one you're using (which only gets 3 sutta hits BTW).

I've discussed in good faith, and have been tolerant of your rude manner. This is your last warning.

DN2,
bodhi has:
‘And when he knows that these five hindrances have left him, gladness arises in him, from gladness comes delight, from the delight in his mind his body is tranquillised, with a tranquil body he feels joy, and with joy his mind is concentrated.

sujato:
Seeing that the hindrances have been given up in them, joy springs up. Being joyful, rapture springs up. When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil. When the body is tranquil, they feel bliss. And when blissful, the mind becomes immersed.Tassime pañca nīvaraṇe pahīne attani samanupassato pāmojjaṃ jāyati, pamuditassa pīti jāyati, pītimanassa kāyo passambhati, passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti, sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.
Again, the difference beween "kayassa sukhino" (SN 46.3) and " kāyo sukhaṃ" in DN 2 doesn't suddenly make 'sukha' become an adjective of citta from what I've seen.

If you want to cite some parallels and how other professional translators render them, I'd be surprised if it worked differently there.


ToVincent wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:20 am
frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:00 pm
sukha is not the adjective for citta in the 7sb awakening factor sequence, and you're the eel wriggler.
It's comical how often the offender of misdeed preemptively accuses the other party of their misdeed.
For your record, I would like to remind you that SN 46.3 does not have "50 other references", as you put it earlier - but only three, which are : SN 56.13, SN 56.16, & MN 118.

And for instance, in SN 56.13, we have 心悅 (the citta is pleased [悅 = sukha]) 、心定 (the citta is established).
I see no sukha of the kāya in that sutra.

If you were to do a more serious job on parallels, you wouldn't say so much buncombe.


May I also remind you that the pericope "that has many references" is:
Pītimanassa kāyo passambhati.
Passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vediyati.
Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.
Samāhite citte dhammā pātubhavanti.

See the last verse!
Samāhite citte
How would you explain that?

I expect you to come with some more lousy explanations; and to camp on your position for the future to come - without any scruple.
.
.

As to this part:
Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.
Samāhite citte dhammā pātubhavanti.

See the last verse!
Samāhite citte
How would you explain that?

Don't understand your question. You think because samahite is an adjective for citte, then sukhino must be an adjective for cittam in the previously line? Again, look at Bodhi and Sujato's translation. It's not
(Sukhino cittaṃ) samādhiyati.
It's
Sukhino (cittaṃ samādhiyati).
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ToVincent
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Re: looking for citation, pīti and sukha of 4 jhānas compared to dying of thirst, seeing water in distance, and drinking

Post by ToVincent » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:01 pm

frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:53 am
...
(Pīti-manassa) kāyo passambhati.
(Passaddha-kāyo) sukhaṃ vedeti.
(Sukhino) cittaṃ samādhiyati.
(Samāhite citte) dhammā pātubhavanti.
For one with a rapturous mind, the body becomes tranquil.
One tranquil in body feels pleasure.
For one feeling pleasure, the mind becomes concentrated.
Bodhi

When the mind is full of rapture, the body becomes tranquil.
When the body is tranquil, one feels bliss.
And when blissful, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi.
Sujato

Bodhi & Sujato have followed Hare's interpretation. While Old's translation is more accurate (at least grammatically logical): "pleased (sukha) at heart (citta), one is serene (samādhi).


The translation should be:

(Pīti-manassa) kāyo passambhati.
(Passaddha-kāyo) sukhaṃ vedeti.
(Sukhino) cittaṃ samādhiyati.
(Samāhite citte) dhammā pātubhavanti.

With the pīti of the mano, the kāya becomes tranquil.
One tranquil in kāya experiences sukha.
Sukhino, the citta becomes established.
In a citta that is established (定), phenomena become manifest.

Pīti of mano => tranquility of kāya.
Tranquility of kāya => sukha.
Sukha => citta established
Citta established => Dhamma manifest.

Up to here, there is nothing that allow anyone to conclude that sukha is the sukha of kāya; no more than anyone can conclude that the tranquility of kāya is the tranquility of mano.
No more than one can definitely conclude that (at verse 3,) the sukha is the sukha of citta.
One might even conclude that sukha is independent of both kāya and sukha.

However, as I said before, SA 810 (the parallel to SN 54.13, that adresses this pericope), speaks of: 心悅 (the citta is pleased [悅 = sukha]) 、心定 (the citta is established/samādhi).

Let the people decide.

_______

"Kāyo sukhaṃ" DN2, you say! - when indeed, the extract is "passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti".
Pretty cagey, indeed!

_______

I'm off.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

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frank k
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Re: looking for citation, pīti and sukha of 4 jhānas compared to dying of thirst, seeing water in distance, and drinking

Post by frank k » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:00 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:01 pm

_______

"Kāyo sukhaṃ" DN2, you say! - when indeed, the extract is "passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti".
Pretty cagey, indeed!

_______

I'm off.
.
.
Yes, you definitely are way off, in more ways than one.
I quoted 'kayo sukham" to contrast against the other "kayassa sukhino" or whatever it was exactly to explain the search engine hit result YOU were claiming I inflated. Maybe stop being paranoid and thinking people are out to get you or win petty arguments.
I have a long history of discussing Dhamma in good faith, and not caring about winning ego battles. I'd be delighted if I could be proven wrong, because it would mean I gained some new truth or understanding that I couldn't figure out myself, and needed a helping hand.
That's why I've tolerated your rude and insolent tone and haven't added you to the blocked list already.

Now if you can show some more agama support, if you could demonstrate all the same pericopes I've been pointing to, and not just SN 54.13 are translated as you quoted earlier, then things get interesting.

As to your claim that sukha is an independent factor in the 7sb awakening sequence, that's just completely irrational. Yes, all the 7sb factors have independent attributes when viewed as factors of the 4 jhanas, but in the 7sb sequence, it's obviously a sequence of casual conditions.
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Re: looking for citation, pīti and sukha of 4 jhānas compared to dying of thirst, seeing water in distance, and drinking

Post by ToVincent » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:41 pm

frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:00 pm
...
心悅
Your choice: https://suttacentral.net/search?query=% ... 6%82%85%22

I am not saying they are absolutely right. There might be some nuance to be applied here.
__________


Clue: You have told me above that my note on kāya was irrelevant to this matter.
Maybe you should wonder what the nature of kāya is along the way of the "escape process". That is to say, a more nuanced approach than your kāya as (always a) purely physical body (sarira).

For instance, is sukhañca kayena in the 3rd jhana, a physical body pleasure ? - or is it the sukha (citta-like or independent) sukha, that pervades the body/breath, or body ayatana?

There is nothing from the 4th Jhāna that appears in Ānāpānasati.

We directly jump to the 5th higher "jhāna":

- Rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā (complete transcending of perceptions of Form (matter).
- Paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā (vanishing of perceptions (based) upon the organs of senses – āyatanāni).

There is no "physical body" involved here.
There is a kāya that is an organ of senses. Namely an āyatana. That is to say, a "field of sensory experience".

Sukhañca kayena might mean a sukha that applies to the field of sensory experience that is kāya in the saḷāyatana nidāna; or it might mean the sukha that applies to a breath devoid of ayatana in the nāmarūpa nidāna.
But it does definitely not represent the sukha of a "physical body" (sarira).


To get to that paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā (vanishing of perceptions (based) upon the organs of senses), kāya has to evolve to a higher level, which is the mere assāsapassāsā (in nāmarūpa nidāna,) that is itself inherited from saṅkhārā nidāna. And to get there, one has to have a free and established citta.

This sukhañca kayena is of the domain of the free citta, not of the ayatanani anymore.
Kāya is henceforward, of the domain of the free citta; not of the ayatanani anymore.

"Kāya sukha" if we may say, is not a "physical body sukha". It is if we may say, either an "ayatanani-like sukha", or a "citta-like sukha".

________

I'm really off.
Useless.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

ToVincent
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Re: looking for citation, pīti and sukha of 4 jhānas compared to dying of thirst, seeing water in distance, and drinking

Post by ToVincent » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:58 am

Please, do correct the above paragraph :

For instance, is sukhañca kayena in the 3rd jhana, a physical body pleasure ? - or is it the sukha (citta-like or independent), (produced) from the body/breath, or body/ayatana?
(The fundamental use of the instrumental (case) in Pāli as in the older languages is to denote the thing with which an action is performed - Wijesekera)

Moreover, there is nothing from the 4th Jhāna that appears in Ānāpānasati. .......... etc.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

frank k
Posts: 628
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: looking for citation, pīti and sukha of 4 jhānas compared to dying of thirst, seeing water in distance, and drinking

Post by frank k » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:47 pm

I don't read Chinese, so you're going to have to give some more explanation there in English, such as, what passage in pali EBT is it parallel to? Those 15 references match DN 2 7sb awakening factor sequence that precedes first jhana? Or they all match SN 54.13?

I don't understand your point about the skipping 4th jhana and going directly into arupa samadhi, for 16 APS breath meditation. The passage you quote about sabbaso rupa sanna sammatikkama applies to the 5th attainment, above 4th jhana. If you're in an arupa samadhi, the 5 consciousness of the body are no longer perceivable, you can't perceive breath either, so how can one be doing breath meditation? arupa samadhi is not part of 16 APS breath meditation.

ToVincent wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:41 pm
frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:00 pm
...
心悅
Your choice: https://suttacentral.net/search?query=% ... 6%82%85%22

I am not saying they are absolutely right. There might be some nuance to be applied here.
__________


Clue: You have told me above that my note on kāya was irrelevant to this matter.
Maybe you should wonder what the nature of kāya is along the way of the "escape process". That is to say, a more nuanced approach than your kāya as (always a) purely physical body (sarira).

For instance, is sukhañca kayena in the 3rd jhana, a physical body pleasure ? - or is it the sukha (citta-like or independent) sukha, that pervades the body/breath, or body ayatana?

There is nothing from the 4th Jhāna that appears in Ānāpānasati.

We directly jump to the 5th higher "jhāna":

- Rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā (complete transcending of perceptions of Form (matter).
- Paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā (vanishing of perceptions (based) upon the organs of senses – āyatanāni).

There is no "physical body" involved here.
There is a kāya that is an organ of senses. Namely an āyatana. That is to say, a "field of sensory experience".

Sukhañca kayena might mean a sukha that applies to the field of sensory experience that is kāya in the saḷāyatana nidāna; or it might mean the sukha that applies to a breath devoid of ayatana in the nāmarūpa nidāna.
But it does definitely not represent the sukha of a "physical body" (sarira).


To get to that paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā (vanishing of perceptions (based) upon the organs of senses), kāya has to evolve to a higher level, which is the mere assāsapassāsā (in nāmarūpa nidāna,) that is itself inherited from saṅkhārā nidāna. And to get there, one has to have a free and established citta.

This sukhañca kayena is of the domain of the free citta, not of the ayatanani anymore.
Kāya is henceforward, of the domain of the free citta; not of the ayatanani anymore.

"Kāya sukha" if we may say, is not a "physical body sukha". It is if we may say, either an "ayatanani-like sukha", or a "citta-like sukha".

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I'm really off.
Useless.
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