equanimity like imperturbable?

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chownah
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equanimity like imperturbable?

Post by chownah » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:00 am

Is being "imperturbable" a word for when equanimity is taken to the limit (so to speak)?

Imperturbable is used in relation to attaining the fourth jhana and sometimes also two of the higher jhanas.....equanimity is used all over the place in many situations.

I'm asking because my understanding of these two words in english leads me to think that they are related as above.
chownah

[james]
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Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:07 pm

Re: equanimity like imperturbable?

Post by [james] » Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:05 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:00 am
Is being "imperturbable" a word for when equanimity is taken to the limit (so to speak)?
....
What is the limit of equanimity? If there is a limit is it equanimity?

Imperturbable, as a word, brings to mind the possibilities of disturbance.
Equanimity, to me, doesn’t refer to anything outside of itself.

For one who meditates, imperturbability is a contrivance or a vehicle to a desired condition.
For one who meditates, equanimity is complete and sufficient at every moment.

chownah
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Re: equanimity like imperturbable?

Post by chownah » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:40 am

[james] wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:05 pm
chownah wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:00 am
Is being "imperturbable" a word for when equanimity is taken to the limit (so to speak)?
....
What is the limit of equanimity? If there is a limit is it equanimity?

Imperturbable, as a word, brings to mind the possibilities of disturbance.
Equanimity, to me, doesn’t refer to anything outside of itself.

For one who meditates, imperturbability is a contrivance or a vehicle to a desired condition.
For one who meditates, equanimity is complete and sufficient at every moment.
My statement was confusing. I was not trying to suggest that there is a limit to equanimity.....I was trying to ask if imperturbability is an extreme or highly developed case of equanimity. For instance: there is happiness like this :) and then there is a highly developed or extreme case of happiness like this :rofl: .

I am interested in the four statements which follow your two questions. Can you discuss them a bit more to explain what or how you came to see things this way? I'm asking because each of the four is a new and different idea to me.
chownah

[james]
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:07 pm

Re: equanimity like imperturbable?

Post by [james] » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:46 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:40 am
I was trying to ask if imperturbability is an extreme or highly developed case of equanimity.
.....

I am interested in the four statements which follow your two questions. Can you discuss them a bit more to explain what or how you came to see things this way? I'm asking because each of the four is a new and different idea to me.
chownah
As I see it, imperturbablility is the outcome of a lot of hard work motivated by an aversion to what is perceived as “disturbance”, “distraction”, “dissatisfaction”, “delusion”. It is the construction of a protective shell or wall against that which one fears.

Why would one even want to be imperturbable? It is a false hope and a denial of what is.

The four “d’s” are the habitual expressions of the alleged self. Being in conflict or opposition to these expressions is only more of the same. Equanimity wells up effortlessly as one makes the clear and simple decision to to let go of, to release one’s fears and clinging to “self”.

So, no, in my view imperturbability is not an extreme or highly developed case of equanimity. The former is closed, the latter is welcoming.

How do you see it?

chownah
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Re: equanimity like imperturbable?

Post by chownah » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:00 am

[james] wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:46 am
chownah wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:40 am
I was trying to ask if imperturbability is an extreme or highly developed case of equanimity.
.....

I am interested in the four statements which follow your two questions. Can you discuss them a bit more to explain what or how you came to see things this way? I'm asking because each of the four is a new and different idea to me.
chownah
As I see it, imperturbablility is the outcome of a lot of hard work motivated by an aversion to what is perceived as “disturbance”, “distraction”, “dissatisfaction”, “delusion”. It is the construction of a protective shell or wall against that which one fears.

Why would one even want to be imperturbable? It is a false hope and a denial of what is.

The four “d’s” are the habitual expressions of the alleged self. Being in conflict or opposition to these expressions is only more of the same. Equanimity wells up effortlessly as one makes the clear and simple decision to to let go of, to release one’s fears and clinging to “self”.

So, no, in my view imperturbability is not an extreme or highly developed case of equanimity. The former is closed, the latter is welcoming.

How do you see it?
In the suttas, imperturbability is considered a desirable characteristic or attainment in meditation as shown in DN 2 Samaññaphala Sutta: The Fruits of the Contemplative Life:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Insight Knowledge
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision.
chownah

[james]
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Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:07 pm

Re: equanimity like imperturbable?

Post by [james] » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:26 pm

chownah wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:00 am
chownah wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:40 am
I was trying to ask if imperturbability is an extreme or highly developed case of equanimity.
In the suttas, imperturbability is considered a desirable characteristic or attainment in meditation as shown in DN 2 Samaññaphala Sutta: The Fruits of the Contemplative Life:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Insight Knowledge
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision.
Does your quoted reference address your question? Would the word “equanimity” also be suitable? How would you answer your own question?

chownah
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: equanimity like imperturbable?

Post by chownah » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:20 pm

[james] wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:26 pm
chownah wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:00 am
chownah wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:40 am
I was trying to ask if imperturbability is an extreme or highly developed case of equanimity.
In the suttas, imperturbability is considered a desirable characteristic or attainment in meditation as shown in DN 2 Samaññaphala Sutta: The Fruits of the Contemplative Life:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Insight Knowledge
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision.
Does your quoted reference address your question? Would the word “equanimity” also be suitable? How would you answer your own question?
The sutta does not address the question that I can see. The word "equanimity" is found in the sutta in relation to some preliminary levels of concentration so if "equanimity" was suitable I think that they would just use it. If I had a satisfactory answer to my question I would not be here asking for input.

I think that at least this sutta uses equanimity and imperturbability in a different way than you do.....but I'm not sure....if you think your ideas on these terms is similar to how the suttas use them or if you should come to some other sorts of ideas after reading the sutta I would be glad to hear what you have to say....I am hoping to get different ideas so I have something to think about with respect to this....so far not much interest....
chownah

2600htz
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Re: equanimity like imperturbable?

Post by 2600htz » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:23 pm

Hello:

Yes, fourth jhana or higher. But in that context still no nibbana.

Regards.

[james]
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:07 pm

Re: equanimity like imperturbable?

Post by [james] » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:43 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:20 pm
The sutta does not address the question that I can see. The word "equanimity" is found in the sutta in relation to some preliminary levels of concentration so if "equanimity" was suitable I think that they would just use it.
What is the Pāli word that is translated into English as “imperturbability”? I did some googling and came up with nothing.
If I had a satisfactory answer to my question I would not be here asking for input.
No doubt. But, as you are here, let me ask you for your input ... what are your thoughts on the meanings and uses or these two words that inspire your question?
I think that at least this sutta uses equanimity and imperturbability in a different way than you do.....but I'm not sure....if you think your ideas on these terms is similar to how the suttas use them or if you should come to some other sorts of ideas after reading the sutta I would be glad to hear what you have to say.
The sutta you reference doesn’t seem, to me, to attach any particular significance to the words as signals or markers of levels of concentration nor insight. In my own appreciation of each word’s meaning, equanimity would be much more closely associated with insight, imperturbability with concentration.
...I am hoping to get different ideas so I have something to think about with respect to this....so far not much interest....
chownah
No, not much. I’m surprised.

sunnat
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Re: equanimity like imperturbable?

Post by sunnat » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:19 am

this is one of those questions or inquiries where stepping back and looking at, meditating on, the why of questioning may be most helpful. it may lead to discovering that the uncertainty is simply a hindrance arising and the answer may be found by waiting for that to pass. an answer is that they are synonyms with variance in emphasis dependent on cultural factors and nothing else. even so there is the use of 'imperturbable equanimity' in a book I recently read/ audio recently listened to..

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Aloka
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Re: equanimity like imperturbable?

Post by Aloka » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:33 am

.

In the book "Parami - Ways to Cross Life's Floods" by Ajahn Sucitto, there's a chapter:

"Evenness of Mind: Upekkha Parami - (sutta) quotes and suggestions on Equanimity" which will probably be helpful. It starts on page 191 of the text.

I don't have time to look through it myself again right now - sorry.

https://www.amaravati.org/dhamma-books/ ... es-floods/



.

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