2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

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form
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2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

Post by form »

1) Read first and understand as what one mostly has no direct experience

2) Read and only accept what one has experience before

Which style is more superior?
Aniccato
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Re: 2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

Post by Aniccato »

I can’t speak to that which is more superior or inferior. However my practice was to read the nikayas which I did not yet understand(admittedly still learning and probably always will be), in order to better understand it. Then with eagerness and effort, put what I have learned/read it into practice. In parallel with practicing I started watching and attending related dhamma talks as well as speaking with and asking monks questions. Then after practicing for some time I come back to and read the Nikayas.

So I suppose I choose 1.a, the middle way ;)
With Metta
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SDC
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Re: 2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

Post by SDC »

Geonny wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:14 pm I can’t speak to that which is more superior or inferior. However my practice was to read the nikayas which I did not yet understand(admittedly still learning and probably always will be), in order to better understand it. Then with eagerness and effort, put what I have learned/read it into practice. In parallel with practicing I started watching and attending related dhamma talks as well as speaking with and asking monks questions. Then after practicing for some time I come back to and read the Nikayas.

So I suppose I choose 1.a, the middle way ;)
:twothumbsup:

I think one of the most important parts about reading the suttas is admitting to oneself that even though the words may be familiar, that we don't know always know exactly what the Buddha meant. In the very act of admitting this we gain the motivation to work harder to discern the meaning. If we just take the words at fact value we don't create any room for that drive and motivation, and I think that tends to make people default back to a more common, worldly understanding instead of trying to discover precisely what it corresponds to in their own experience.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
cookiemonster
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Re: 2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

Post by cookiemonster »

form wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:20 am 1) Read first and understand as what one mostly has no direct experience

2) Read and only accept what one has experience before

Which style is more superior?
Both - in a way. It's not an either-or proposition, but rather involves a spectrum. I think of knowledge as a single lightbulb over my head, illuminating a long passageway ahead of me. What I've directly experienced is what is immediately found around me under the full illumination of the lightbulb, but I can still make out some things further ahead, and less so in the shadows beyond that.
chownah
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Re: 2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

Post by chownah »

I have never seen the "nikayas" as needing an "approach" which is specially tuned to them. Can someone bring an example of a nikaya and show how it is typical of all of the "nikayas" and also show what the two approaches might be?
chownah
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Alīno
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Re: 2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

Post by Alīno »

form wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:20 am 1) Read first and understand as what one mostly has no direct experience

2) Read and only accept what one has experience before

Which style is more superior?
The most superior way of reading is reading one's own mind, the most superiour way of practice is the way that lead to development of wholesome states of mind, diminishing of unwholesome states of mind, that leads to peace, to dispassion, to cessation of craving...

So your mind is your mind, other people's mind is other people's mind, so if they say you what work for them it probably will not work for you... That's why it's important not to follow predefined schemes, beliefs, views and procedures, but use your own wisdom, see your own sufferings, causes, cessation and path... The aim of all Dhamma practices is dispassion, cessation of craving, non-greed, non-hatred, non-delusion...

From my personal experience I think its indispensable to read all Suttanta entirely, but be carefull and not use this knowledge of scriptures as weapon to win dhamma-battles, rather a weapon to win your own kilesas of Greed Hatred and Delusion. I say that because many peoples on dhamma forums suffer so much because of their Sutta knowledge and because of lack of knowledge of their own minds. Suttas is a precious finger, not the moon.
Also one need to know that sooner or later he will forget all what he readed, because it's only information, information is useless, what have a value it's development of the mind, its what will remain after the death of the body, brain, and all information you accumulated...

It's only my opinion, so use your own wisdom, one practitioner need to know for homself what lead to wholesome and what to unwholesome...
_/\_
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...
binocular
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Re: 2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

Post by binocular »

form wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:20 am 1) Read first and understand as what one mostly has no direct experience

2) Read and only accept what one has experience before

Which style is more superior?
Neither of these approaches say anything about the reader's intention for reading. Yet it is possibly the reader's intention that makes all the difference.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
form
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Re: 2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

Post by form »

binocular wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:39 pm
form wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:20 am 1) Read first and understand as what one mostly has no direct experience

2) Read and only accept what one has experience before

Which style is more superior?
Neither of these approaches say anything about the reader's intention for reading. Yet it is possibly the reader's intention that makes all the difference.
Likely the intention is to become enlightened.
binocular
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Re: 2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

Post by binocular »

form wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:37 amLikely the intention is to become enlightened.
If only everyone who reads the suttas would do it with the intention to become enlightened!
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
chownah
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Re: 2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

Post by chownah »

form wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:37 am
binocular wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:39 pm
form wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:20 am 1) Read first and understand as what one mostly has no direct experience

2) Read and only accept what one has experience before

Which style is more superior?
Neither of these approaches say anything about the reader's intention for reading. Yet it is possibly the reader's intention that makes all the difference.
Likely the intention is to become enlightened.
Likely the intention is to become whatever that person thinks that enlightenment is.....for many it is like going to heaven or some really sweet existence....for many enlightenment is just an enabled form of grasping at least as nearly as I can tell....and for some it is annihilation.... (it is impossible to really know what others are really thinking).....and heck maybe some of them are right.....seems unlikely that they all are right though.
chownah
p.s. I'm still hopeing that someone will tell me what it is about the nikayas which is the cause of their mention.
chownah
form
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Re: 2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

Post by form »

chownah wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:43 am
form wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:37 am
binocular wrote: Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:39 pm
Neither of these approaches say anything about the reader's intention for reading. Yet it is possibly the reader's intention that makes all the difference.
Likely the intention is to become enlightened.
Likely the intention is to become whatever that person thinks that enlightenment is.....for many it is like going to heaven or some really sweet existence....for many enlightenment is just an enabled form of grasping at least as nearly as I can tell....and for some it is annihilation.... (it is impossible to really know what others are really thinking).....and heck maybe some of them are right.....seems unlikely that they all are right though.
chownah
p.s. I'm still hopeing that someone will tell me what it is about the nikayas which is the cause of their mention.
chownah
binocular wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:26 am
form wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:37 amLikely the intention is to become enlightened.
If only everyone who reads the suttas would do it with the intention to become enlightened!
I think most know that it is about less sufferings and no more rebirth. The confidence level can fluctuate and so they adjust to what they think is a realistic goal based on that.
chownah
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Re: 2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

Post by chownah »

form wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:09 pm
chownah wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:43 am
form wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:37 am

Likely the intention is to become enlightened.
Likely the intention is to become whatever that person thinks that enlightenment is.....for many it is like going to heaven or some really sweet existence....for many enlightenment is just an enabled form of grasping at least as nearly as I can tell....and for some it is annihilation.... (it is impossible to really know what others are really thinking).....and heck maybe some of them are right.....seems unlikely that they all are right though.
chownah
p.s. I'm still hopeing that someone will tell me what it is about the nikayas which is the cause of their mention.
chownah
binocular wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:26 am
form wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:37 amLikely the intention is to become enlightened.
If only everyone who reads the suttas would do it with the intention to become enlightened!
I think most know that it is about less sufferings and no more rebirth. The confidence level can fluctuate and so they adjust to what they think is a realistic goal based on that.
You probably think that because that is what you think it is about and you think that most people are more or less like you with respect to the dhamma......if you lived in thailand you would probably find that most people here hold very different views than you do.....for instance I think (but don't know for sure) that many, most, or nearly all of thai buddhists are looking for a BETTER rebirth and not the end of rebirth and that the end of suffering comes about by having more money and nicer friends.
chownah
form
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Re: 2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

Post by form »

chownah wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:23 am
form wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:09 pm
chownah wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:43 am
Likely the intention is to become whatever that person thinks that enlightenment is.....for many it is like going to heaven or some really sweet existence....for many enlightenment is just an enabled form of grasping at least as nearly as I can tell....and for some it is annihilation.... (it is impossible to really know what others are really thinking).....and heck maybe some of them are right.....seems unlikely that they all are right though.
chownah
p.s. I'm still hopeing that someone will tell me what it is about the nikayas which is the cause of their mention.
chownah
binocular wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:26 am
If only everyone who reads the suttas would do it with the intention to become enlightened!
I think most know that it is about less sufferings and no more rebirth. The confidence level can fluctuate and so they adjust to what they think is a realistic goal based on that.
You probably think that because that is what you think it is about and you think that most people are more or less like you with respect to the dhamma......if you lived in thailand you would probably find that most people here hold very different views than you do.....for instance I think (but don't know for sure) that many, most, or nearly all of thai buddhists are looking for a BETTER rebirth and not the end of rebirth and that the end of suffering comes about by having more money and nicer friends.
chownah
I based that on those I know in the Buddhist society I visited. So maybe the teacher there has done a rather good job. But those I interact more with are mainly those closer to him. So u may be correct.
Viachh
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Re: 2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

Post by Viachh »

form wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:20 am 1) Read first and understand as what one mostly has no direct experience

2) Read and only accept what one has experience before

Which style is more superior?
"...no theoretical explanations are given during the course of the exercises; only at the end the student’s experience are connected with the corresponding details of the system and principles of Buddhist teaching by the master of meditation ."(Nyanaponika," Mindfulness as a Means of Spiritual Education ", Chapter VI Burmese Satipatthana Method and Practice of its Exercises, p.102)
(my translation from Russian)
"...во время хода упражнений не даются никакие теоретические разъяснения; только по окончании курса переживания изучающего связываются мастером медитации с соответствующими подробностями системы и принципами буддийского учения."(Ньянапоника, "Внимательность как средство духовного воспитания", Глава VI Бирманский метод сатипаттхана и практика его упражнений, стр 102)
form
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Re: 2 different types of approaches to reading the Nikayas

Post by form »

Viachh wrote: Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:20 am
form wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:20 am 1) Read first and understand as what one mostly has no direct experience

2) Read and only accept what one has experience before

Which style is more superior?
"...no theoretical explanations are given during the course of the exercises; only at the end the student’s experience are connected with the corresponding details of the system and principles of Buddhist teaching by the master of meditation ."(Nyanaponika," Mindfulness as a Means of Spiritual Education ", Chapter VI Burmese Satipatthana Method and Practice of its Exercises, p.102)
(my translation from Russian)
"...во время хода упражнений не даются никакие теоретические разъяснения; только по окончании курса переживания изучающего связываются мастером медитации с соответствующими подробностями системы и принципами буддийского учения."(Ньянапоника, "Внимательность как средство духовного воспитания", Глава VI Бирманский метод сатипаттхана и практика его упражнений, стр 102)
:goodpost:

Came from a teacher I respect a lot.
Last edited by form on Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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