4TN are not for everyone

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cappuccino
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:16 am

DooDoot wrote:There is this world & the other world. . . . There are spontaneously arisen beings
from your quote

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DooDoot
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:20 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:16 am
from your quote
I already quoted AN 4.45 that says:
For it is in this fathom-long carcass with its perception and mind that I describe the world, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation.

Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadanti.
Again, you are interpretation "the world" materialistically with materialism.

Again, about "the world":
The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.

"And what is the ending of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. Now, from the remainderless cessation & fading away of that very craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the ending of the world.

SN 12.44
As for "beings", they are explained in SN 23.2:
'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:[4] as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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cappuccino
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:21 am

cappuccino wrote:
The spiritual faculty of discriminating wisdom must be complemented with that of faith or, in the words of the Buddha, it becomes “cunning, which is as hard to cure as a disease caused by medicine.”
The Right View of Rebirth
:reading:

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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:24 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:21 am
:reading:
Ajahn Punnadhammo is not the Buddha. Possibly about you & him, the Buddha said:
"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.

Ani Sutta
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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chownah
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by chownah » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:02 am

Viachh wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:17 pm
You do not seem to have noticed my argument: in the section "the objects of mind". Why did the Buddha refer 4TN, specifically, to this section?
I think it was placed there because suffering is what the 4NT is all about and suffering is an object of the mind.
chownah

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Nwad
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Nwad » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:34 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:24 am
Dear Doodoot,

Its off-topic but reading it I came across two of your opinions that I would like to question you about.

1. "Satipathana is not a Buddha Dhamma, and it cant lead to liberation because observing rising and falling of phenomenas can not lead to Liberation.

- Why do you think that Satipathana is not Buddha Dhamma? There is some arguments?
- You say contemplating anicca not lead to freedom, but try to look all around you, and say to yourself - all this is impermanent... - do you feel dispassion or passion arising if your heart while you reflect like that?

2. There is no rebirth.

- you think that there is no rebirth at all, like annihilation view, or you something else? Can you explain please how do you see it?
- you have faith in Buddha but why you don't believe him while he talk about rebirth and that Wordly Right View is Right?
- you say that because Worldly Right View is different from Ariya Right View that the wordly one is wrong... But its not because he is wordly that he is wrong, it still a Right View, its still true, and it lead to Sotapanna fruit

I don't like debates, and i think you don't will change your mind, but I would like to understand why you belief in that view and why you find it satisfying :anjali:

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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Viachh » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:04 pm

DNS wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:04 pm
Viachh wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:58 am
(a) It makes no sense to apply everyday common sense to 4TN,

(b) just as it makes no sense to apply Newtonian laws to the level of elementary particles at which the laws of quantum physics operate.
I have labeled your argument with a & b. It is a false analogy. Your (b) might be correct; perhaps it makes no sense to apply Newtonian laws to quantum physics, but that is not a good analogy for (a) and makes no point.
Thus, the information embedded in . . .
Therefore, your conclusion doesn't follow.
Why? (Any arguments?)
:shrug:

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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:53 pm

Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:34 am
1. "Satipathana is not a Buddha Dhamma, and it cant lead to liberation because observing rising and falling of phenomenas can not lead to Liberation.
Thank you Nwad. I apologise if my post was not clear to you. What I said in my post was the Four Noble Truths are not objects of observing rising and falling. If the Four Noble Truths were subject to rising & falling (vanishing), there can be no enlightenment, since the realisation of the Four Noble Truths in the mind of a Buddha is something permanent. In MN 12, the Buddha declares to Venerable Sariputta there can be no change in the lucidity of his wisdom. MN 140 says the realisation of Truth does not fluctuate. Therefore, the realisation of the Four Noble Truths is not something subject to rising & falling. Not everything in Buddhism is impermanent. Nibbana is not impermanent. Truth or Dhamma-Niyama (Law of Nature) is not impermanent (refer to SN 12.20 and AN 3.136 on Sutta Central).
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:34 am
Why do you think that Satipathana is not Buddha Dhamma? There is some arguments?
Why? Because AN 5.159 says the Dhamma is taught in the right sequence. Yet Satipathana Sutta say the meditator calms breathing, then experiences painful feelings, then experiences five hindrances, then has impermanent experience of Four Noble Truths. To me it does not make sense. Where as the teaching of Satipathana in the Anapanasati Sutta makes sense to me.
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:34 am
You say contemplating anicca not lead to freedom
I did not say this. I said what i explained above.
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:34 am
, but try to look all around you, and say to yourself - all this is impermanent... - do you feel dispassion or passion arising if your heart while you reflect like that?
I did not say this.
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:34 am
2. There is no rebirth.
try to look all around you, and say to yourself - all this is impermanent... - do you feel dispassion or passion arising if your heart while you reflect like that?

This said, I have not read many teachings in the suttas that are about the type of 'rebirth' you are imagining. I think you need to show me where the Buddha spoke a Pali word that means 'rebirth' or 'reincarnation'.
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:34 am
- you think that there is no rebirth at all, like annihilation view, or you something else? Can you explain please how do you see it?
The annihilation view is not about a denial of 'rebirth'. It is about the idea a 'self' will cease at death (refer to DN 1; Iti 49, etc). Possibly you can study more rather than post 'village folk Buddhism'.
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:34 am
you have faith in Buddha but why you don't believe him while he talk about rebirth and that Wordly Right View is Right?
It appears you are imagining what you claim the Buddha taught. The Buddha does not even mention 'rebirth' in the worldly right view. Also, I do not disbelieve in the worldly right view.
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:34 am
you say that because Worldly Right View is different from Ariya Right View that the wordly one is wrong...
No, I did not ever say this. Possibly you should try to focus on practising the 4th precept.
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:34 am
But its not because he is wordly that he is wrong, it still a Right View, its still true, and it lead to Sotapanna fruit
No, no, no, no. I imagine it can never ever lead to Sotapanna fruit. You appear seriously mistaken here. Since the worldly right view results in attachments (acquisitions; upadhi), how can it lead to Sotapanna fruit? :shrug:
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:34 am
I don't like debates
Probably because you have not studied & practised the Dhamma sufficiently to engage in debates about Dhamma. For example, to me, your post had unsubstantiated ideas about Dhamma and often slandered me. The Tao De Ching says: "There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand." :yingyang:
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:34 am
, and i think you don't will change your mind, but I would like to understand why you belief in that view and why you find it satisfying
It seems its it your mind that will not change from its "village folk Buddhism" beliefs. What I posted I believe adheres strictly to the suttas.

Regards :smile:
His release, being founded on truth, does not fluctuate, for whatever is deceptive is false; Unbinding — the undeceptive — is true. Thus a monk so endowed is endowed with the highest determination for truth, for this — Unbinding, the undeceptive — is the highest noble truth.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

sentinel
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by sentinel » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:22 pm

Probably , 4 NT are not for those without affinity , not everyone interested in ending Buddhism type of suffering . At least for now .
Does the Buddha ever mentioned anything about other realm and being ? Yes .

Jati is birth , comes after bhava / becoming .
Does ending of a thought is called death ?
In which text ?
Probably , the Pali words does not have Rebirth , don't know for sure , well , need to find out how the Buddha addressed the issue .
One have to investigate other texts .
If one argue that jati is not rebirth , that doesn't change the Fact that there are afterlife , they are myriads of realms and beings .


https://suttacentral.net/mn130/en/sujato

In the same way, with clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, I see sentient beings passing away and being reborn—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place. I understand how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds: ‘These dear beings did good things by way of body, speech, and mind. They never spoke ill of the noble ones; they had right view; and they chose to act out of that right view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm, or among humans.




https://suttacentral.net/an3.36/en/sujato

When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell
:buddha1:

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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Dan74 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:32 pm

There are various ways and levels on which the 4 Noble Truths may be approached. Of course we don't usually start with an ability to see defilements just as they arise in the mind, but only develop this later through practice. This doesn't mean that we cannot observe the 4NT at a courser level, understand them and practice accordingly.
_/|\_

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Nwad
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Nwad » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:04 pm

Thank you DooDoot for detailed reply :anjali:
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:53 pm
What I said in my post was the Four Noble Truths are not objects of observing rising and falling. If the Four Noble Truths were subject to rising & falling (vanishing), there can be no enlightenment, since the realisation of the Four Noble Truths in the mind of a Buddha is something permanent. In MN 12, the Buddha declares to Venerable Sariputta there can be no change in the lucidity of his wisdom. MN 140 says the realisation of Truth does not fluctuate. Therefore, the realisation of the Four Noble Truths is not something subject to rising & falling. Not everything in Buddhism is impermanent. Nibbana is not impermanent. Truth or Dhamma-Niyama (Law of Nature) is not impermanent (refer to SN 12.20 and AN 3.136 on Sutta Central).
Its true that observing rising and falling of 4NT make no sense, maybe it's just a repetition of the sutta, like with others objects? But i'am agree that there is no rising and faling of 4NT.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:53 pm
Why? Because AN 5.159 says the Dhamma is taught in the right sequence. Yet Satipathana Sutta say the meditator calms breathing, then experiences painful feelings, then experiences five hindrances, then has impermanent experience of Four Noble Truths. To me it does not make sense. Where as the teaching of Satipathana in the Anapanasati Sutta makes sense to me.
Hmm..
I'am not sure that we need to go through all objects by starting with breath. Most of objects of satipatthana can be only observed out of formal meditation, or out of deep meditation, as you mentioned it with 5 hindrances.
As i understand it, satipatthana object is more about object that follows you througt the day, depend on object of corse, but is like koan that you keep in mind all the time.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:53 pm
The annihilation view is not about a denial of 'rebirth'. It is about the idea a 'self' will cease at death (refer to DN 1; Iti 49, etc). Possibly you can study more rather than post 'village folk Buddhism'.
Oh yes i see!
Actualy you are right, because all our 5 focuses of identity dies with the body, all our memories, sense consciousness etc. If your view on rebirth as the simile of one candle that fires up next candle, its seems to me the right way to see rebirth. Next body of my kammic flow will not be ME, because ME (my body feelings, memory, formations, sense consciousness) will die with this body, and while diyng it will give the kammic impulse to the next khandhas (5 or less)
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:53 pm
No, I did not ever say this. Possibly you should try to focus on practising the 4th precept.
I'am sorry :anjali: I should better say "as i understood, ..."
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:53 pm
No, no, no, no. I imagine it can never ever lead to Sotapanna fruit. You appear seriously mistaken here. Since the worldly right view results in attachments (acquisitions; upadhi), how can it lead to Sotapanna fruit? :shrug:
The thing is that before relising Arya Fruit, pratitioner still a wordly being, so he cant technicaly have Arya View because he is not an Arya yet, so before Streamentry his Right View is a Wordly Right Wiev.
Attachements are here until Arahantship, Sotapanna still experiance attachements to wordly things like sensual pleasures etc.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:53 pm
Probably because you have not studied & practised the Dhamma sufficiently to engage in debates about Dhamma.
:tongue:
Actualy it's juste because its a waste of time, source of suffering and agitation, dont lead to peace, to dispassion. :anjali:
But thank you for yours explanations, i understand better now, i'am almost agree :) Sorry if i offended you somewhere, next time i will be less lazy and quote exact words :anjali:

Metta :)

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Nicolas
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Nicolas » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:27 pm

Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:04 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:53 pm
Probably because you have not studied & practised the Dhamma sufficiently to engage in debates about Dhamma.
:tongue:
Actualy it's juste because its a waste of time, source of suffering and agitation, dont lead to peace, to dispassion. :anjali:
:bow: :thumbsup:

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Sam Vara
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:11 pm

Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:04 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:53 pm
Probably because you have not studied & practised the Dhamma sufficiently to engage in debates about Dhamma.
:tongue:
Actualy it's juste because its a waste of time, source of suffering and agitation, dont lead to peace, to dispassion. :anjali:
More :bow: :thumbsup: !

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cappuccino
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:18 pm

Nwad wrote:
DooDoot wrote: The annihilation view is not about a denial of 'rebirth'. It is about the idea a 'self' will cease at death (refer to DN 1; Iti 49, etc). Possibly you can study more rather than post 'village folk Buddhism'.
Oh yes i see!
Actualy you are right, because all our 5 focuses of identity dies with the body, all our memories, sense consciousness etc.
If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].

Ananda Sutta: To Ananda

chownah
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by chownah » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:37 am

The 4NT is a fabrication.....a view....all views are to be abandoned.....am I making an error here?
Isn't "the 4NT are truths" a position?....didn't the buddha say that the thatagata does not have a position....that the thatagatha does not argue that things are false....or even true?
chownah

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