4TN are not for everyone

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:43 am

DooDoot wrote:
cappuccino wrote: The Right View of Rebirth
:focus: Four noble truths is not about 'rebirth'.
who cares about the four truths, if you're not able to accept rebirth

it just becomes irrelevant

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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:46 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:43 am
you can't seem to learn
The Noble Right View does not include 'rebirth' ('upapajjati').
And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions :? ? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the other world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously arisen ('reborn') beings :roll: ; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the other after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

And what is the right view that is noble :thumbsup: , without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

MN 117
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:48 am

there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the other after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.
from what you quoted

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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:49 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:48 am
from what you quoted
right view with effluents (asava), siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions (upadhi)
But when a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused true knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he does not generate a meritorious volitional formation, or a demeritorious volitional formation, or an imperturbable volitional formation. Since he does not generate or fashion volitional formations, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Not being agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna.

SN 12.51
Four Noble Truths is about Noble Right View and not worldly right view for merit :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:55 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:48 am
proclaim this world & the other after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'
Four Noble Truths is about the cessation of the world (and not about the 'next world')
For it is in this fathom-long carcass with its perception and mind that I describe the world, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation.

Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadanti.

AN 4.45
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:56 am

DooDoot wrote: right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions
it's right because it's true
Last edited by cappuccino on Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:58 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:56 am
it's right because it's true

it doesn't become untrue
What is true is the untrue things you are posting are untrue

The right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions is not about the Four Noble Truths

The Four Noble Truths is about the ending of effluents and ending of acquisitions.

Rebirth is the maintaining of asava and the gaining of acquisitions.

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:59 am

DooDoot wrote:
cappuccino wrote: it's right because it's true

it doesn't become untrue
What is true is the untrue things you are posting are untrue
you lack faith in rebirth, hence your view is wrong

never mind the noble stuff

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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:01 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:59 am
never mind the noble stuff
At least you admit no interest in the noble stuff and confirm the OP that 4TN are not for everyone...
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:02 am

one has to build on a foundation

that is karma & rebirth

right view first, never mind me

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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:05 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:02 am
one has to build on a foundation

that is karma & rebirth

right view first, never mind me
Its not Noble Right View. Its not build on an ignoble foundation. The ignoble right view results in acquisitions, which are described as follows:
And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.

MN 26
As he explores he understands thus: ‘The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: this suffering has acquisition as its source, acquisition as its origin; it is born and produced from acquisition. When there is acquisition, aging-and-death comes to be; when there is no acquisition, aging-and-death does not come to be.’

SN 12.66
:alien:
Viachh wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:58 am
For others(not noble ones), the information embedded in 4TN has no practical meaning(that is, it cannot be understood and used).
:bow:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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cappuccino
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:06 am

you have to start with right view

you're attempting to skip right view

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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:07 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:06 am
you have to start with right view

you're attempting to skip right view
you have to start with right speech

you're attempting to skip right speech

'rebirth' is not Noble Right View

the Four Noble Truths are about Noble Dhammas

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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cappuccino
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:09 am

many times you've been corrected by others

without success

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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:15 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:09 am
many times you've been corrected by others

without success
Last post for you to acknowledge what the suttas say. Note: "rebirth" is not even mentioned below.
And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the other world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously arisen beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the other after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

MN 117
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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