4TN are not for everyone

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DooDoot
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:53 am

Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:04 pm
Hmm..
I'am not sure that we need to go through all objects by starting with breath. Most of objects of satipatthana can be only observed out of formal meditation, or out of deep meditation, as you mentioned it with 5 hindrances.
Normally, it seems the five hindrances are hindrances to meditation rather than objects of meditation. It seems that is why they are called "hindrances".
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:04 pm
As i understand it, satipatthana object is more about object that follows you throught the day, depend on object of course, but is like koan that you keep in mind all the time.
As i understand it, anupassi (closely watching) meditation is free from gross or ordinary thought, which is why there are suttas, such as MN 19 & 20, about removing distracting thoughts.
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:04 pm
Actually you are right, because all our 5 focuses of identity dies with the body, all our memories, sense consciousness etc.
No. The above sounds incorrect and sounds like annihilationism. You still seem to believe there is a "self" or "identity" or "our" that "dies". It seems it is you (and not me) that is an annihilationist. DN 1 & Iti 49 are suttas than define annihilationism.
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:04 pm
If your view on rebirth as the simile of one candle that fires up next candle
The Buddha never spoke of any candle (apart from a lamp that extinguishes when the fuel ceases, in MN 140). Also, the candle is an illogical explanation, given a candle flame cannot exist without a candle body or wax that fuels the candle. The idea that a candle can pass on a flame to another candle is the same idea that a living body (rather than a dead body) would pass on consciousness to another living body. It doesn't make sense, at least to me, that a dead body is the same as a candle with a flame. The candle with a flame is a "living candle" rather than a "dead candle". A dead candle cannot pass on a flame.
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:04 pm
its seems to me the right way to see rebirth.
Obviously, it is the wrong way because the Buddha never taught your way. The Buddha did not teach about candles and rebirth. The Buddha taught beings are 'reborn' according to their kamma/deeds. This is the right way to explain.
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:04 pm
Next body of my kammic flow will not be ME, because ME (my body feelings, memory, formations, sense consciousness) will die with this body, and while diyng it will give the kammic impulse to the next khandhas (5 or less)
The Buddha did not teach the non-sense above. You sounds like a nihilistic heretic that wishes to abandon personal responsibility for your kamma. The Buddha taught beings are heirs to their actions. Yet you seem to be preaching you will not be the heir to your actions. Also, it appears your view is definitely Annihilationist, given you believe "you" or "me" will die.
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:04 pm
The thing is that before realising Arya Fruit, pratitioner still a wordly being, so he cant technically have Arya View because he is not an Arya yet, so before Streamentry his Right View is a Wordly Right View.
Sorry but there is practising for Ariya and fruit of Ariya. The puthujjana practitioner must have Ariya View and then take a leap of faith/trust into the Stream. To enter the Stream requires two things: (i) Right View & (ii) practising the Right View. The puthujjana that only comprehends the Right View will remain a Puthujjana. But the Puthujjana that practises the Right View will become a Stream-Enterer. The Ariya are called those that "practise" ("patipanno").
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:04 pm
Attachements are here until Arahantship, Sotapanna still experiance attachements to wordly things like sensual pleasures etc.
Sorry but Sotapanna has reduced and eliminated many attachments. Refer to SN 13.1:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery.

Then the Blessed One, picking up a little bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monks, "What do you think, monks? Which is greater: the little bit of dust I have picked up with the tip of my fingernail, or the great earth?"

"The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth — this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail — when compared with the great earth."

"In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most seven remaining is next to nothing: it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:04 pm
Actualy it's juste because its a waste of time, source of suffering and agitation, dont lead to peace, to dispassion.
It is actually an opportunity to practise wise reflection about the teachings and learn properly, as the Buddha taught in AN 10.61 and many other places.
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:04 pm
Sorry if i offended you somewhere, next time i will be less lazy and quote exact words
I do not take offense because I do not believe in Cultural Marxism and I do not suffer fools gladly. Dhamma discussion here is a chance for you, me and others to learn. Here, teachers with metta can teach you and us. For example, on this topic, you probably made at least a dozen assertions, that the suttas i quoted showed were incorrect or wrong view.
Nicolas wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:27 pm
Nwad wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:04 pm
Actualy it's juste because its a waste of time, source of suffering and agitation, dont lead to peace, to dispassion.
:bow: :thumbsup:
Its always ironic & funny when the "reincarnation gang", the "liberal sex" gang & the "five hindrance Satipatthana meditators" claim to have "dispassion"; even funnier when its "dispassion due to impermanence". The reality of this exchange is the passion for rebirth (a form of bhavatanha) was the cause for its arising.


With metta :heart:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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pegembara
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by pegembara » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:25 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:37 am
The 4NT is a fabrication.....a view....all views are to be abandoned.....am I making an error here?
Isn't "the 4NT are truths" a position?....didn't the buddha say that the thatagata does not have a position....that the thatagatha does not argue that things are false....or even true?
chownah
The 4NT is a fabrication which leads to the end of fabrication(I, my and mine making eg. my views/opinions/beliefs). It is no longer relevant for the arahant.
"Monks, I will teach you the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded to the Blessed One.

The Blessed One said: "Suppose a man were traveling along a path. He would see a great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. The thought would occur to him, 'Here is this great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. What if I were to gather grass, twigs, branches, & leaves and, having bound them together to make a raft, were to cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with my hands & feet?' Then the man, having gathered grass, twigs, branches, & leaves, having bound them together to make a raft, would cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with his hands & feet. [7] Having crossed over to the further shore, he might think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having hoisted it on my head or carrying it on my back, go wherever I like?' What do you think, monks: Would the man, in doing that, be doing what should be done with the raft?"

"No, lord."

"And what should the man do in order to be doing what should be done with the raft? There is the case where the man, having crossed over, would think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having dragged it on dry land or sinking it in the water, go wherever I like?' In doing this, he would be doing what should be done with the raft. In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

form
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by form » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:28 am

Is 4NT the heap of leaves the Buddha referred to?

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Nwad
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Nwad » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:35 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:53 am
"five hindrance Satipatthana meditators"
Until a practitioner is conscious (con-scious, vi-nnana) and wise enough to distinguish: this is dukkha and that is non-dukkha, he can observe 5 hindrances rising and falling.
All objects of mind can be observed and penetrated, because they are objects. There is a space between object and subject, vi-nnana...

Agitated mind can not see clearly, as someone who runs inside the fog can not watch his feet and keep running. Calm mind can see all objects, as someone who walks calmly and can observe his feets walking, even into the fog.

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DooDoot
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:26 pm

Nwad wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:35 pm
Until a practitioner is conscious (con-scious, vi-nnana) and wise enough to distinguish: this is dukkha and that is non-dukkha, he can observe 5 hindrances rising and falling.
Unlikely. It seems hindrances are hindrances to discernment. The suttas say about the hindrances:
Well, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sense-desires, and does not know, as it really is, the way of escape from sense-desires that have arisen, then he cannot know or see, as it really is, what is to his own profit, nor can he know and see what is to the profit of others, or of both himself and others. Then even sacred words he has long studied are not clear to him, not to mention those he has not studied.

"Imagine, Brahman, a bowl of water mixed with lac, turmeric, dark green or crimson dye. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was. In the same way, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sense-desires... then he cannot know or see, as it really is, what is to his own profit, to the profit of others, to the profit of both. Then even sacred words he has long studied are not clear to him, not to mention those he has not studied.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
:candle:
Nwad wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:35 pm
All objects of mind can be observed and penetrated, because they are objects. There is a space between object and subject, vi-nnana...
Unlikely. When an object is "penetrated" in Buddhism, that object will "nirodha" (pacify, quench, extinguish). MN 19 describes how the Buddha wiped hindrances out of existence. It seems, according to the suttas (apart from the Satipatthana sutta), that a practitioner wipes out hindrances (rather than imagines they are observing hindrances). For example, from MN 38:
Abandoning the Hindrances

Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness & alertness, he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a wilderness, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a forest grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore.

Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will & anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will & anger. Abandoning sloth & drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth & drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness & anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness & anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
Nwad wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:35 pm
Agitated mind can not see clearly, as someone who runs inside the fog can not watch his feet and keep running.
Yes. But the above appears to contradict what you previously said.
Nwad wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:35 pm
Calm mind can see all objects, as someone who walks calmly and can observe his feets walking, even into the fog.
Yes, but a mind with hindances is not a calm mind according to the suttas. The suttas say:
Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed with ill-will... then he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water, heated on a fire, boiling up and bubbling over. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was...

"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sloth-and-torpor... then he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water covered over with slimy moss and water-plants. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was...

"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by worry-and-flurry... then he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water ruffled by the wind, so that the water trembled, eddied and rippled. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was...

"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by doubt-and-wavering... he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water, agitated, stirred up muddied, put in a dark place. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was. In the same way, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by doubt-and-wavering... then he cannot know or see, as it really is, what is to his own profit, to the profit of others, to the profit of both. Then even sacred words he has long studied are not clear to him, not to mention those he has studied.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Nwad
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Nwad » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:44 am

I don't know, iam not an expert nor in screaptures nor in meditation, just try to overcome dukkha with means that I have...
The only what i know is that there is 5 hindrances, knowing that there is 5 hindrances and seeing "there is such a hindrance" I can apply Right Effort, the space between object and subject provide a refuge, all objects of mind are not me mont mine mot myself...it was what I meant to say, I can mistake but it helps me to limit sufferings about about conditioned phenomenas

But thank you DooDoot for your detailed sharings, your love and protection of the Dhamma :anjali:

PS Maybe it's just an Abhidhamma problem? Like there is defiled citta that arise, then non-defiled citta, and again defiled citta,etc? What do you think ? :juggling:

Viachh
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Viachh » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:44 am

You can practice Satipatthana without even knowing about the existence of 4TN. Just like you can solve a problem in mathematics or physics without knowing the answer in advance. Having completed the solution to the problem, you compare your answer with the answer at the end of the task book. Similarly, Satipathana practitioners come to understand 4TN. Namely, they see that 4TN is a law that operates at the level of dhammas (objects of the mind). An ordinary person does not have sufficient sensitivity to this level, so 4TN for him/her is a pure abstraction, which has no practical value.
"...no theoretical explanations are given during the course of the exercises; only at the end the student’s experience are connected with the corresponding details of the system and principles of Buddhist teaching by the master of meditation."(Nyanaponika," Mindfulness as a Means of Spiritual Education ", Chapter VI Burmese Satipatthana Method and Practice of its Exercises,p.102)
(my translation from Russian)
"...во время хода упражнений не даются никакие теоретические разъяснения; только по окончании курса переживания изучающего связываются мастером медитации с соответствующими подробностями системы и принципами буддийского учения."(Ньянапоника, "Внимательность как средство духовного воспитания", Глава VI Бирманский метод сатипаттхана и практика его упражнений, стр. 102)
Thus, 4TN are not for everyone, but only for those who have already solved the problem or are one or two steps before solving it.

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DooDoot
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:38 am

Viachh wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:44 am
You can practice Satipatthana without even knowing about the existence of 4TN.
Actually, you can't. Right Mindfulness cannot exist without Right View, per the many suttas. It appears you do not know what Satipatthana is.
Viachh wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:44 am
Thus, 4TN are not for everyone, but only for those who have already solved the problem or are one or two steps before solving it.
Seems like having no idea, above. It appears you do not know what 4NTs are.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Viachh
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Viachh » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:19 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:38 am
Viachh wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:44 am
You can practice Satipatthana without even knowing about the existence of 4TN.
Actually, you can't. Right Mindfulness cannot exist without Right View, per the many suttas. It appears you do not know what Satipatthana is.
Viachh wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:44 am
Thus, 4TN are not for everyone, but only for those who have already solved the problem or are one or two steps before solving it.
Seems like having no idea, above. It appears you do not know what 4NTs are.
The absence of specific arguments, common words and the diagnosis of the interlocutor, all this speaks of the correctness of my words and your incompetence.

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DooDoot
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:12 pm

Viachh wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:19 am
The absence of specific arguments, common words and the diagnosis of the interlocutor, all this speaks of the correctness of my words and your incompetence.
Must I quote sutta to confirm the correctness & competence of my post; and thus demonstrate the incompetence of a disagreer with me?
MN 117 wrote:The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view.

One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities right view, right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
Viachh wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:44 am
"(Nyanaponika," Mindfulness as a Means of Spiritual Education ", Chapter VI Burmese Satipatthana Method and Practice of its Exercises,p.102)
'Right mindfulness' means to 'recollect right view'. Satipatthana means to 'establish mindfulness' thus to 'establish right view'. 'Right mindfulness' & Satipatthana do not mean 'observing objects'. For example, if I spend my time observing attractive women, this is not 'right mindfulness' & not Satipatthana. The primary characteristic of mindfulness & Satipatthana is described in the relevant suttas, as follows:
MN 10 wrote:Mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

And he remains independent, not clinging to anything in the world.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Therefore, any meditation that does not aim at being mindful (remembering) so to always abandon craving according to the right view of the four noble truths is unrelated to the Noble Buddhist Path.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Viachh
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Viachh » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:52 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:12 pm
Viachh wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:19 am
The absence of specific arguments, common words and the diagnosis of the interlocutor, all this speaks of the correctness of my words and your incompetence.
Must I quote sutta to confirm the correctness & competence of my post; and thus demonstrate the incompetence of a disagreer with me?
MN 117 wrote:The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view.

One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities right view, right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
Viachh wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:44 am
"(Nyanaponika," Mindfulness as a Means of Spiritual Education ", Chapter VI Burmese Satipatthana Method and Practice of its Exercises,p.102)
'Right mindfulness' means to 'recollect right view'. Satipatthana means to 'establish mindfulness' thus to 'establish right view'. 'Right mindfulness' & Satipatthana do not mean 'observing objects'. For example, if I spend my time observing attractive women, this is not 'right mindfulness' & not Satipatthana. The primary characteristic of mindfulness & Satipatthana is described in the relevant suttas, as follows:
MN 10 wrote:Mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

And he remains independent, not clinging to anything in the world.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Therefore, any meditation that does not aim at being mindful (remembering) so to always abandon craving according to the right view of the four noble truths is unrelated to the Noble Buddhist Path.
Instead of refuting my arguments:
viewtopic.php?p=527767#p527767,
you continue to impose your erroneous understanding, hiding your incompetence for quotes that are not directly related to my arguments. This trick will not work for you.

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