4TN are not for everyone

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Viachh
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4TN are not for everyone

Post by Viachh » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:58 am

The Four Truths of the Noble are considered by the Buddha in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN22) in the section "the objects of mind". So 4TN belong to the level of dhammas and can be adequately understood by the "logic" existing, namely, at the level of dhammas. It makes no sense to apply everyday common sense to 4TN, just as it makes no sense to apply Newtonian laws to the level of elementary particles at which the laws of quantum physics operate.
Thus, the information embedded in 4TN can be understood and used only by those Buddhist yogis(the Noble Ones) who, at least, have the ability to perceive from their own experience the flow of dhammas (santana). For others(not noble ones), the information embedded in 4TN has no practical meaning(that is, it cannot be understood and used).

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DooDoot
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:13 am

Viachh wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:58 am
Thus, the information embedded in 4TN can be understood and used only by those Buddhist yogis(the Noble Ones) who, at least, have the ability to perceive from their own experience the flow of dhammas...
AN 3.61 says: "For those who feel (vediyamānassa kho panāhaṃ), I teach the four noble truths".

The emphasis above on "the flow of dhammas" appear related to contemplating impermanence or the more subtle dependent origination rather than the four noble truths.

The four noble truths simply say suffering arises due to craving & attachment. This shouldn't be too difficult to apply in everyday circumstances.

:smile:
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Nwad
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Nwad » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:22 pm

Hello :anjali:

4NT is an algorithm of solving problems. All life problems can be solved with this procedure.

1. You identity the problem
2. You understand the cause
3. You find a solution
4. You realise the way to this solution

It's true that once practitioner touched Nibbana for a moment he can solve all (or most of) his dukkha problems on his own, because he found the Path of Peace. But nevertheless following and developing N8P, until ripping of fruit, no need 4NT to be realised directly, so it's ok if a practitioner not yet understand 4NT directly, he should keep practicing N8P. Its just that those who realised the Path can start walking on it with 4NT-wisdom-machete in hand, cutting off all obstacles on the Path trough the jungle of Samsara.

Ajahn Pannavudho said that N8P is not strictly gradual, and each aspect of the path need to be developed good enought to make wheel be solid enouth to realise path and fruit moments. Also he said that they are interconnected and support each other, so if some practitioned have great discernement (wisdom) he no need develop 4 jhanas, and on the contrary one endowed with great calm (samadhi) no need to have great discernement to make wheel turning on the path and to realise the fruit. It will be solid enought. But he need a perfect wheel in all aspects to realise Arahantship.

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Geonny
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Geonny » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:22 pm

Viachh wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:58 am
It makes no sense to apply everyday common sense to 4TN, just as it makes no sense to apply Newtonian laws to the level of elementary particles at which the laws of quantum physics operate.
I feel that It makes perfect sense to apply the 4NT to everyday life. We have such little time in this planet. We must strive at all time to completely understand suffering, what causes it, the fact that it can be ended and finally maybe most importantly ensure that we follow the Noble 8 Fold Path that leads us to the end of suffering. Scientific laws and the such are constant and we have no control over them, however we do have complete control over the path we choose.

My 2 cents.
With Metta
Geonny

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seeker242
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by seeker242 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:38 pm

Viachh wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:58 am
For others(not noble ones), the information embedded in 4TN has no practical meaning(that is, it cannot be understood and used).
It can be used by non-noble ones. The Buddha himself stated that is how one becomes a noble one to begin with.
Then Sāriputta went up to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. The Buddha said to him:

“Sāriputta, they speak of a ‘factor of stream-entry’. What is a factor of stream-entry?”

“Sir, the factors of stream-entry are associating with good people, listening to the true teaching, proper attention, and practicing in line with the teaching.”
The 4NT have a very practical meaning as that is what one "practices in line with" to become a noble one to begin with.

Viachh
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Viachh » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:55 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:13 am

The four noble truths simply say suffering arises due to craving & attachment. This shouldn't be too difficult to apply in everyday circumstances.

"This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise."
(Ayacana Sutta: The Request)
:shrug:

Viachh
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Viachh » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:17 pm

Nwad wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:22 pm


4NT is an algorithm of solving problems. All life problems can be solved with this procedure.

1. You identity the problem
2. You understand the cause
3. You find a solution
4. You realise the way to this solution
The problem, the cause, a solution, the way to this solution are on the dharmic level. You do not seem to have noticed my argument: in the section "the objects of mind". Why did the Buddha refer 4TN, specifically, to this section?
:shrug:

Viachh
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Viachh » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:49 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:13 am

The emphasis above on "the flow of dhammas" appear related to contemplating impermanence or the more subtle dependent origination rather than the four noble truths.
1. Impermanence and the more subtle dependent origination are part of 4TN.
2. Why did the Buddha refer 4TN, specifically, to this section("the objects of mind", that is, dhammas), suggesting the ability to distinguish between dhammas, as well as their arising and cessation?
:shrug:

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Nwad
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Nwad » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:52 pm

Viachh wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:17 pm
The problem, the cause, a solution, the way to this solution are on the dharmic level. You do not seem to have noticed my argument: in the section "the objects of mind". Why did the Buddha refer 4TN, specifically, to this section?
Oh!
I dont really know... maybe because this section regroups all other topics that can lead to liberation when took as object of contemplation... so it means that without realising them yet, one can take them as object and contemplate it, pass all daily experiences throught this object and if there is conditions - realise it directly ?

If I remember dhammas as Nibbana or Buddha can be also objects of contemplation and reflection, so it means that all beings can reflect on them and get fruit.

The word "reflection" is interesting here. Because by taking one object practitioner let all daily experiences "reflect" on this object, he watch on all experiences throught his object, like some gold seeker will pass all sands of the river throught his bowl to find a gold piece.
So by taking 4NT one will try to see and analyse all his experiences throught the prism of 4NT, until he will realise it...
Iam off-topic maybe

Viachh
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by Viachh » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:13 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:13 am
Viachh wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:58 am
Thus, the information embedded in 4TN can be understood and used only by those Buddhist yogis(the Noble Ones) who, at least, have the ability to perceive from their own experience the flow of dhammas...
AN 3.61 says: "For those who feel (vediyamānassa kho panāhaṃ), I teach the four noble truths".
"Fill" just means possessing a sensitivity capable of distinguishing dhammas in a flow of dhammas(santana), that is, yogis or people with great abilities inherited from past lives in which they were practicing yogis.
:shrug:

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cappuccino
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by cappuccino » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:17 pm

Viachh wrote: For others (not noble ones), the information embedded in 4TN has no practical meaning (that is, it cannot be understood and used).
Reading the first truth was the start for me.

I knew it was true… I was suffering.
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:17 pm

Viachh wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:55 pm
"This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise."
(Ayacana Sutta: The Request)
The quote above is not about the Four Noble Truths (simplified teaching) but is about Dependent Origination, as I originally posted. The quote confirms what I wrote but does not support your ideas about the Four Noble Truths.
Viachh wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:49 pm
1. Impermanence and the more subtle dependent origination are part of 4TN.
No. If impermanence was a part of the 4NT, the Buddha would not have been required to teach about impermanence in a 2nd sermon. The 4NT teach about four things: (i) attachment is dukkha; (ii) dukkha arises due to craving leading to new becoming; (iii) dukkha ends when craving ends; and (iv) the N8FP is the practice to end dukkha. The 4NTs do not explicitly teach about impermanence (anicca). Birth, aging, illness & death in the 1st noble truth are forms of attachment; such as the idea "I will die", which is suffering. They are not taught to explain impermanence.
Viachh wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:55 pm
2. Why did the Buddha refer 4TN, specifically, to this section("the objects of mind", that is, dhammas), suggesting the ability to distinguish between dhammas, as well as their arising and cessation?
The Buddha probably didn't speak the Satipatthana Sutta. Your question is non-sequitur. If the 4NT were liable to arising & passing, this would mean Truth, Realisation, Nibbana & Liberation are liable to arising & passing. This obviously does not make sense, which is another reason, among others, why the Buddha probably didn't speak the Satipatthana Sutta. Even the most conventional mainstream monk Bhikkhu Sujato has called the Satipatthana Sutta a "hoax".
Viachh wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:13 pm
"Feel" just means possessing a sensitivity capable of distinguishing dhammas in a flow of dhammas(santana), that is, yogis or people with great abilities inherited from past lives in which they were practicing yogis.
In Buddhism, the word "yoga" means "bondage" or "slavery". Buddhist practitioners are not "yogis". "Feeling" does not mean "flow of dhammas". "Feeling" means sensory impact of pleasant feeling, unpleasant & neither feeling.

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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cappuccino
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by cappuccino » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:23 pm

The first truth is… life is stressful.

Anxiety is stress, for example.

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DooDoot
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:29 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:23 pm
The first truth is… life is stressful.
In your mind, maybe. But not in the actual teaching. The word "life" does not appear in the teaching.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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cappuccino
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Re: 4TN are not for everyone

Post by cappuccino » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:30 pm

DooDoot wrote:
cappuccino wrote: The first truth is… life is stressful.
In your mind, maybe. But not in the actual teaching.
as was said by the Master: 'As even a little excrement is of evil smell, I do not praise even the shortest spell of existence, be it no longer than a snap of the fingers.'

The Life of Sariputta
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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