How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

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sentinel
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How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

Post by sentinel » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:19 am

According to text Buddha says it is very difficult to take birth in human realm such as the turtle story . The chances are very slim for most people to regain it after losses their lives as human .
However , nowadays it appears human population is estimated over 7 billions or much more . So , how does Buddhism reconcile in explaining the contradiction ?!
Nowadays , cloning life is a way to breed life .
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Keith
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Re: How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

Post by Keith » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:28 am

sentinel wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:19 am
According to text Buddha says it is very difficult to take birth in human realm such as the turtle story . The chances are very slim for most people to regain it after losses their lives as human .
However , nowadays it appears human population is estimated over 7 billions or much more . So , how does Buddhism reconcile in explaining the contradiction ?!
Is 7 billion a lot? How many ants are there? How many shrimp? How many grasshoppers? How many rats? How many beings are in the formless realms for tens of thousands of cosmic eons? I have no idea if 7 billion is a lot, compared to the number of sentient beings in existance at this present time (which is another confusing topic, because of the lack of absolute simultaneity - look up special relativity. The sequence of events is dependent on the reference frame of the observer. No wonder the Buddha said that it was imponderable).
sentinel wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:19 am
Nowadays , cloning life is a way to breed life .
I don't understand the significance of this.

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Dhammanando
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Re: How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:11 am

Keith wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:28 am
Is 7 billion a lot? How many ants are there?
Quite a few, it seems:
In their Pulitzer-prize winning book The Ants, researchers Bert Hölldobler and Edward O. Wilson estimate that there are upwards of 10,000,000,000,000,000 individual ants alive on Earth at any given time.

10 Frightening Facts You Probably Didn't Know About Ants
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Keith
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Re: How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

Post by Keith » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:15 am

Thank you Bhante. I was employing a rhetorical device.

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Dhammanando
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Re: How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:31 am

Keith wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:15 am
Thank you Bhante. I was employing a rhetorical device.
Yes, I got that. But the figure is so staggering (even more so for termites!) I couldn't resist posting it.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
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Re: How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

Post by sentinel » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:51 am

Keith wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:28 am
Is 7 billion a lot? How many ants are there? How many shrimp? How many grasshoppers? How many rats?
Haha , topic is human not animals . Well , the question is since rebirth as human being very difficult , it should be getting lesser as time passes .
If 7 billions is not a lot how then over population became the present state concern for many !
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Keith
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Re: How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

Post by Keith » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:04 am

sentinel wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:51 am
topic is human not animals .
I must have misinterpreted your question. The increase in human population is not significant compared to how many sentient beings exist in Samsara. You originally asked about a contradiction, but I see none.
sentinel wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:51 am
Well , the question is since rebirth as human being very difficult , it should be getting lesser as time passes
It depends on how many beings have exhausted their time in higher realms, as well as how many from lower realms. Samsara is in flux, and I do not agree with your conclusion that the number of beings should be decreasing simply because a human birth is rare. Rarity is relative.
sentinel wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:51 am
If 7 billions is not a lot how then over population became the present state concern for many !
It is all relative. Our current population is ecologically unsustainable. That has no relevance to the workings of dependent origination or punabbhava. If we make our planet uninhabitable for us (and I believe we will) then perhaps we will have to wait another cosmic eon for the circumstances to arise that being about another habitable planet that has the conditions optimal for the attainment of Nibbana. Everything is impermanent.

sentinel
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Re: How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

Post by sentinel » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:28 am

Keith wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:04 am
It depends on how many beings have exhausted their time in higher realms, as well as how many from lower realms. Samsara is in flux, and I do not agree with your conclusion that the number of beings should be decreasing simply because a human birth is rare. Rarity is relative.
Since human state is Extremely rare to obtain , whether lifespan of beings of the higher & lower realms when exhausted , has no direct evidence that they will rebirth in human realm because the chances are way thin .
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Keith
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Re: How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

Post by Keith » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:32 am

sentinel wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:28 am
Keith wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:04 am
It depends on how many beings have exhausted their time in higher realms, as well as how many from lower realms. Samsara is in flux, and I do not agree with your conclusion that the number of beings should be decreasing simply because a human birth is rare. Rarity is relative.
Since human state is Extremely rare to obtain , whether lifespan of beings of the higher & lower realms when exhausted , has no direct evidence that they will rebirth in human realm because the chances are way thin .
I don't understand you, and I'm not convinced you understand me either

sentinel
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Re: How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

Post by sentinel » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:01 pm

:popcorn:
:buddha1:

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Geonny
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Re: How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

Post by Geonny » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:12 pm

This I have heard:
"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"

SN 56.48
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


As you mention the turtle story. Let’s reflect on it again. Human life is extremely rare and precious. Even if we clone is it really consciousness that it receives. Or merely a mind in a body? Buddha knew all and knew that this time would come with cloning and synthetic life. This may be one of those situations like “is the universe infinite or finite”. It’s answer doesn’t lead to the end of suffering. It instead may cause more. It’s best to not spend our precious little time with such worries.
Last edited by Geonny on Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
With Metta
Geonny

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seeker242
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Re: How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

Post by seeker242 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:13 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:19 am
However , nowadays it appears human population is estimated over 7 billions or much more . So , how does Buddhism reconcile in explaining the contradiction ?!
What contradiction? The number of humans beings among beings is still exponentially and infinitesimally small, which by definition, makes it still an extraordinarily rare occurrence.
Staying at Savatthi. Then the Blessed One, picking up a little bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monks, "What do you think, monks? Which is greater: the little bit of dust I have picked up with the tip of my fingernail, or the great earth?"

"The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It doesn't even count. It's no comparison. It's not even a fraction, this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail, when compared with the great earth.

"In the same way, monks, few are the beings reborn among human beings. Far more are those reborn elsewhere. Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will live heedfully.' That's how you should train yourselves."

SN 20.2
Even if the number is now 1,000 times that, it's still next to nothing, still not even a fraction, when compared with the great earth.

sentinel
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Re: How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

Post by sentinel » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:24 pm

Geonny wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:12 pm
Buddha knew all and knew that this time would come with cloning and synthetic life.
I doubt Buddha knows everything . He didn't aware when few of his disciples dies bitten by snake .
;)
Last edited by sentinel on Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sentinel
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Re: How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

Post by sentinel » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:26 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:13 pm
Even if the number is now 1,000 times that, it's still next to nothing, still not even a fraction, when compared with the great earth.
Probably you missed the question .
:juggling:
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seeker242
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Re: How difficult it is to obtain human life ?

Post by seeker242 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:41 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:26 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:13 pm
Even if the number is now 1,000 times that, it's still next to nothing, still not even a fraction, when compared with the great earth.
Probably you missed the question .
:juggling:
The question I saw was "How does Buddhism reconcile this contradiction?"

But there is no contradiction.

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