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Nama Rupa and Contact

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:49 pm
by Visigoth
Nama is defined as intention, contact, attention, feeling, and perception (SN 12.2) where as DO/patticasamuppada explains contact as namarupa paccaya salyatana, salyatana paccaya phasa : dependent on name & form six sense basis, dependent on six sense basis contact, thereby ultimately making contact dependent on name & form

The question is : if 'nama' constitutes 'phassa/contact' by its very definition, how could contact be dependent on nama rupa as defined in DO?

With Mehta.

Re: Nama Rupa and Contact

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:58 pm
by DooDoot
Visigoth wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:49 pm
Nama is defined as intention, contact, attention, feeling, and perception (SN 12.2) where as DO/patticasamuppada explains contact as namarupa paccaya salyatana, salyatana paccaya phasa : dependent on name & form six sense basis, dependent on six sense basis contact, thereby ultimately making contact dependent on name & form

The question is : if 'nama' constitutes 'phassa/contact' by its very definition, how could contact be dependent on nama rupa as defined in DO?
My here-&-now interpretation is the nama-phassa (4th condition) refers to the internal contact that occurs with the internal sankhara (2nd condition). The external contacts (6th condition) refer to when nama-rupa (4th condition) is enslaved by the ignorant sankhara (1st & 2nd condition), which causes the sense organs (5th condition) to seek/purse external contacts (6th condition).

If you read MN 19, it describes how the Buddha-To-Be used his nama-rupa (governed by mindfulness & wisdom) to eliminate the unwholesome ignorant sankharas (2nd condition).

If you are able to meditate upon what I wrote above, you may develop personal conviction in my explanation (which is similar to the explanation of Thanissaro Bhikkhu on pages 3 and 6 of his book: The Shape of Suffering).

Re: Nama Rupa and Contact

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:10 pm
by SarathW
Dependent Origination is not linear. It is interconnected in many ways.
There are many variations in DO.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti

Re: Nama Rupa and Contact

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:10 pm
by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
SarathW wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:10 pm
...
It is interconnected in many ways.
...

:goodpost:

Re: Nama Rupa and Contact

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:14 pm
by salayatananirodha
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html wrote:"These five faculties — the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty — remain standing in dependence on vitality."[2]

"And vitality remains standing in dependence on what?"

"Vitality remains standing in dependence on heat."

"And heat remains standing in dependence on what?"

"Heat remains standing in dependence on vitality."

"Just now, friend Sariputta, we understood you to say, 'Vitality remains standing in dependence on heat.' And just now we understood you to say, 'Heat remains standing in dependence on vitality.' Now how is the meaning of these statements to be seen?"

"In that case, friend, I will give you analogy, for there are cases where it is through an analogy that an intelligent person understands the meaning of a statement. Suppose an oil lamp is burning. Its radiance is discerned in dependence on its flame, and its flame is discerned in dependence on its radiance. In the same way, vitality remains standing in dependence on heat, and heat remains standing in dependence on vitality.

Re: Nama Rupa and Contact

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:04 am
by sentinel
Visigoth wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:49 pm
Nama is defined as intention, contact, attention, feeling, and perception (SN 12.2) where as DO/patticasamuppada explains contact as namarupa paccaya salyatana, salyatana paccaya phasa : dependent on name & form six sense basis, dependent on six sense basis contact, thereby ultimately making contact dependent on name & form

The question is : if 'nama' constitutes 'phassa/contact' by its very definition, how could contact be dependent on nama rupa as defined in DO?

With Mehta.
Hi , the contact and attention were late addition .
If you look at Śāriputrābhidharma-śāstra which resemble the vibhanga and Dharmaskandha-sastra structure , other than contact and attention , wisdom factor was added to it .
If contact is internal , the number six sense base which is mind , is already an internal contact .

Re: Nama Rupa and Contact

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:41 am
by DooDoot
sentinel wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:04 am
If contact is internal , the number six sense base which is mind , is already an internal contact .
The initial contact with the sankhara is internal. If the sankhara is not eliminated but, instead, given inappropriate attention, it becomes part of the six contacts.

Re: Nama Rupa and Contact

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:47 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,

Please note: this topic has been moved from Theravada For Beginners to General Theravada discussion because the finer points of dependent origination do not constitute a "beginners" topic.

Responses will no longer require moderator approval.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)

Re: Nama Rupa and Contact

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:35 pm
by chownah
Visigoth wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:49 pm
The question is : if 'nama' constitutes 'phassa/contact' by its very definition, how could contact be dependent on nama rupa as defined in DO?
I don't have an answer to your question but the Sheaves of Reeds sutta (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html) has a similar sort of circular dependence between consciousness and name and form....here is an excerpt of that part of the sutta:
"Just now, friend Sariputta, I understood your statement as, 'It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that name-&-form is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously. However, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form' But then I understood your statement as, 'It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that consciousness is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously.' However, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Now how is the meaning of these statements to be understood?"

"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."
....so you can see that namarupa and consciousness and the six sense media are all sort of bound together or so it seems....so if the six sense media is part of the mix then among namarupa, consciousness, and the six sense media you would have contact. I guess then that if you wanted to answer "what is contact" you could say it is the meeting of the six sense media and consciousness....or....since namarupa is intertwined with the six sense media and consciousness then one might just say that namarupa is contact in that its arising would be enough evidence to indicate that the six sense media and consciousness had also arisen and so contact has also arisen.....I guess.....don't know for sure....
chownah

Re: Nama Rupa and Contact

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:02 pm
by chownah
Also, from sn12.2 there is this:
From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling.
Notice that this small excerpt starts with consciousness and ends with feeling. I forget which sutta but there is one which states that consciousness, perception, and feeling are conjoined and not disjoined....so it sort of looks like all of the things mentioned between consciousness and feeling are sort of all in the mix together so to speak....I guess.....don't know for sure....
chownah

Re: Nama Rupa and Contact

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:47 am
by form
chownah wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:02 pm
Also, from sn12.2 there is this:
From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling.
Notice that this small excerpt starts with consciousness and ends with feeling. I forget which sutta but there is one which states that consciousness, perception, and feeling are conjoined and not disjoined....so it sort of looks like all of the things mentioned between consciousness and feeling are sort of all in the mix together so to speak....I guess.....don't know for sure....
chownah
In MN sutta 43:8