How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?

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SarathW
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How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?

Post by SarathW » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:27 am

How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:02 am

How do you know what a once returner (Sakdagami) is? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Aloka
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Re: How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?

Post by Aloka » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:40 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:27 am
How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?
Why do you need to know ? :shrug:

Isn't there an "a " missing, by the way.....eg Sakadagami?


.
Last edited by Aloka on Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sentinel
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Re: How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?

Post by sentinel » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:36 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:27 am
How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?
sensuality absence from your mind .
:buddha1:

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Nwad
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Re: How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?

Post by Nwad » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:20 pm

Hello, :anjali:

This is a good vidéo who can give some parts of the answer on your question.
As i understood, in this vidio Ajahn Sona say that Sakadagami can experiance Selsual Desire and Ill WIll but only as a response to some event. He dont seek fot it, and dont generates it, but can react on it in some limited way.


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DooDoot
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Re: How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:47 am

Nwad wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:20 pm
This is a good vidéo...
Thank you for this Nwad. I will try to listen to it tomorrow.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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DooDoot
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Re: How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:57 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:02 am
How do you know what a once returner (Sakdagami) is?
Just two suttas for now. I will do more research tomorrow (or later). :smile:
AN 7.15 wrote: Udakūpamāsutta: A Simile With Water

Mendicants, these seven people found in the world are like those in water. What seven?

1. One person sinks under once and stays under. It’s the kind of person who has exclusively dark, unskillful qualities.

2. One person rises up then sinks under. It’s the kind of person who, rising up, thinks: ‘It’s good to have faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom regarding skillful qualities.’ However their faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom don’t last or grow, but dwindle away.

3. One person rises up then stays put. It’s the kind of person who, rising up, thinks: ‘It’s good to have faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom regarding skillful qualities.’ And their faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom lasts, neither dwindling nor growing.

4. One person rises up then sees and discerns. It’s the kind of person who, rising up, thinks: ‘It’s good to have faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom regarding skillful qualities.’ With the ending of three fetters they’re a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.

5. One person rises up then crosses over. And what kind of person rises up then crosses over? It’s the kind of person who, rising up, thinks: ‘It’s good to have faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom regarding skillful qualities.’ With the ending of three fetters, and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion, they’re a once-returner. They come back to this world once only, then make an end of suffering.

6. One person rises up then finds a footing. It’s the kind of person who, rising up, thinks: ‘It’s good to have faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom regarding skillful qualities.’ With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn [arise] spontaneously. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world.

7. One person has risen up, crossed over, and gone beyond, and that brahmin stands on the shore. It’s the kind of person who, rising up, thinks: ‘It’s good to have faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom regarding skillful qualities. They realize the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life. And they live having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements.

https://suttacentral.net/an7.15/en/sujato
Iti 96 wrote: The Bonds

This was said by the Lord…

“Bhikkhus, one bound by the bond of sensual desire and by the bond of being is a returner, one who comes back to this state. One freed from the bond of sensual desire but still bound by the bond of being is a non-returner, one who does not come back to this state. One freed from the bond of sensual desire and freed from the bond of being is an arahant, one in whom the taints are destroyed.”

Fettered by both these bonds—
The sensual bond and the bond of being—
Living beings continue in saṃsāra,
Journeying on to birth and death.

Those who abandon sensual desires
But have not reached the taints’ destruction,
Fettered by the bondage of being,
Are declared to be non-returners.

But those who have cut off doubts,
Destroyed conceit and renewal of being,
Who reach the taints’ full destruction,
Though in the world, have gone beyond.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/iti96
:candle:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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DooDoot
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Re: How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:39 am

“Mendicants, there are these five faculties.
“Pañcimāni, bhikkhave, indriyāni.

What five?
Katamāni pañca?

The faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom.
Saddhindriyaṃ … pe … paññindriyaṃ—

These are the five faculties.
imāni kho, bhikkhave, pañcindriyāni.

Someone who has completed and fulfilled these five faculties is a perfected one. If they are weaker than that, they’re a non-returner. If they are weaker still, they’re a once-returner. If they are weaker still, they’re a stream-enterer. If they’re weaker still, they’re a follower of the teachings. If they’re weaker still, they’re a follower by faith.”

Imesaṃ kho, bhikkhave, pañcannaṃ indriyānaṃ samattā paripūrattā arahaṃ hoti, tato mudutarehi anāgāmī hoti, tato mudutarehi sakadāgāmī hoti, tato mudutarehi sotāpanno hoti, tato mudutarehi dhammānusārī hoti, tato mudutarehi saddhānusārī hotī”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn48.12/en/sujato
When he passed away the Buddha declared that he was a once-returner, who was reborn in the company of the Joyful Gods.

So kālaṅkato bhagavatā byākato: ‘sakadāgāmī satto tusitaṃ kāyaṃ upapanno’ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.75/en/sujato
Which five conclude their path in this realm?

Katamesaṃ pañcannaṃ idha niṭṭhā?

The one who has seven rebirths at most, the one who goes from family to family, the one-seeder, the once returner, and the one who is perfected in the present life.

Sattakkhattuparamassa, kolaṅkolassa, ekabījissa, sakadāgāmissa, yo ca diṭṭheva dhamme arahā—

Which five conclude their path after leaving this realm behind?

Katamesaṃ pañcannaṃ idha vihāya niṭṭhā?

The one who is extinguished between one life and the next, the one who is extinguished upon landing, the one who is extinguished without extra effort, the one who is extinguished with extra effort, and the one who heads upstream, going to the Akaniṭṭha realm.

Antarāparinibbāyissa, upahaccaparinibbāyissa, asaṅkhāraparinibbāyissa, sasaṅkhāraparinibbāyissa, uddhaṃsotassa akaniṭṭhagāmino—

https://suttacentral.net/an10.64/en/sujato
:reading:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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pitakele
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Re: How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?

Post by pitakele » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:53 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:27 am
How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?
To my understanding, graduated insight knowledges culminate in the different path knowledges. Each of the paths is a life changing experience realized with powerful insight that leaves no doubt about the nature of that experience. Otherwise, how can it be path knowledge? It doesn't need to be verified from others. It is directly experienced by the individual.

Again, according to my understanding, at each path there is cessation followed by clear knowledge of which fetters have been removed or attenuated (i.e. for Sakadāgāmī). Knowledge of fetter removal or attenuation will manifest differently for individuals according to their different faculties etc.

I think it is important to note that in reality there are no Sotāpannas, Sakadāgāmīs, Ānāgāmīs or Arahats. These are just designations for different stages of freedom along the path. After all, the path and the goal is about realizing not I, not me, not mine. If someone truly believes they are a Sotāpanna, Sakadāgāmī, Ānāgāmī or Arahat, there is delusion right at that point. To my understanding, identifying with anything at all is counter to the path and a cause of dukkha.

In some suttas, it is mentioned that a Sotāpanna can return to this world up to seven times, a Sakadāgāmī once, and an Ānāgāmī never. To my understanding, this can't be known directly - it can only be taken on faith from the Buddha. However, Arahats have direct knowledge that 'birth is exhausted' (khīnajāti).
Last edited by pitakele on Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
now here = nowhere

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DooDoot
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Re: How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:39 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:27 am
How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?
Although I do not claim to be correct, after doing some sutta investigations here and here, my new current revolutionary view is the mind of a "once-returner" can return to sensuality but the "once-returner" has the Path Development to 'quickly act to pacify that suffering' ('dukkhassantaṃ karoti'). Thus is called a "once-returner" (because does not dwell for a long time in sensuality). I'll keep investigating it. :mrgreen:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

sentinel
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Re: How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?

Post by sentinel » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:33 am

The peculiar thing about sakadagamin and anagamin , Buddha never declared his disciples sakadagamin and anagamin , but only an sotapanna the stream entry and arhat the worthy one .
there arose in the Venerable Kondanna the dust-free, stainless vision of the Dhamma: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."
Then the Blessed One uttered this inspired utterance: "Kondanna has indeed understood! Kondanna has indeed understood!
And while this discourse was being spoken, the minds of the bhikkhus of the group of five were liberated from the taints by nonclinging.
Last edited by sentinel on Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
:buddha1:

pegembara
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Re: How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?

Post by pegembara » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:43 am

Here is the Buddha's advice on this subject.
And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — does not discern what ideas are fit for attention or what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas fit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas unfit for attention.

"And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality increases; the unarisen fermentation of becoming arises in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming increases; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance increases. These are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to.

"And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to. Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him, and arisen fermentations increase.

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

form
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Re: How do you know that you are a once returner (Sakdagami)?

Post by form » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:30 am

Two kinds of people that know this and are very sure of it are:
1) real once returner

2) crazy people

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