media = sense fields = bases ?

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sunnat
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media = sense fields = bases ?

Post by sunnat » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:12 am

MN 148 - Chachakka Sutta

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/pli/ms
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/bodhi
audio : http://dhammasukha.org/uploads/1/2/8/6/ ... 110825.mp3
(the audio is the entire sutta recited in english)

Pali
‘Cha bāhirāni āyatanāni veditabbānī’ti—iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ. Kiñcetaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ? Rūpāyatanaṃ, saddāyatanaṃ, gandhāyatanaṃ, rasāyatanaṃ, phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṃ, dhammāyatanaṃ. ‘Cha bāhirāni āyatanāni veditabbānī’ti—iti yaṃ taṃ vuttaṃ, idametaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ. Idaṃ dutiyaṃ chakkaṃ.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu
'The six external media should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? The form-medium, the sound-medium, the aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile sensation-medium, the idea-medium. 'The six external media should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the second sextet.

Bhikku Sujato
‘The six exterior sense fields should be understood.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? There are the sense fields of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and thoughts. ‘The six exterior sense fields should be understood.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it. This is the second set of six.

Bhikku Bodhi
‘The six external bases should be understood.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? There are the form-base, the sound-base, the odour-base, the flavour-base, the tangible-base, and the mind-object-base. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The six external bases should be understood. ’ This is the second set of six.

-external media (form-medium, the sound-medium, the aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile sensation-medium, the idea-medium.)
-exterior sense fields (sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and thoughts.)
-external bases (form-base, the sound-base, the odour-base, the flavour-base, the tangible-base, and the mind-object-base.)

what does it mean: media = sense fields = bases ?

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retrofuturist
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Re: media = sense fields = bases ?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:25 am

Greetings sunnat,
sunnat wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:12 am
what does it mean: media = sense fields = bases ?
These are three different translations of āyatanāni.

What do you mean "what does it mean"? Can you please clarify your question?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Bundokji
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Re: media = sense fields = bases ?

Post by Bundokji » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:17 am

sunnat wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:12 am
what does it mean: media = sense fields = bases ?
To what extent do you feel the differences between these three translations affect the overall meaning of the sutta?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

sunnat
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Re: media = sense fields = bases ?

Post by sunnat » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:21 am

ok, for a start what does base mean.?

____

Nose - When an odorant (external volatilized chemical compounds) comes in contact with the noses sense doors (olfactory receptor neurons) a signal is transmitted to the brain where it is recognised and designated "smell, odour".

Eyes - When photons...(rods and cones)... Sight

Ears - When agitated air (or any medium, gas, liquid) ...(tympanic membrane and on to a complex system that sends a signal)... Sound

Tounge - When a flavorant, sapid...(taste bud cell proteins)... Flavour

Body - ?

Mind - ?

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Bundokji
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Re: media = sense fields = bases ?

Post by Bundokji » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:39 am

sunnat wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:21 am
ok, for a start what does base mean.?
When i googled the word base, one of the definitions is:
a conceptual structure or entity on which something draws or depends.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Pondera
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Re: media = sense fields = bases ?

Post by Pondera » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:08 am

sunnat wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:21 am
ok, for a start what does base mean.?

____

Nose - When an odorant (external volatilized chemical compounds) comes in contact with the noses sense doors (olfactory receptor neurons) a signal is transmitted to the brain where it is recognised and designated "smell, odour".

Eyes - When photons...(rods and cones)... Sight

Ears - When agitated air (or any medium, gas, liquid) ...(tympanic membrane and on to a complex system that sends a signal)... Sound

Tounge - When a flavorant, sapid...(taste bud cell proteins)... Flavour

Body - ?

Mind - ?
This is a common western view often called “idealism”. It is wrong.

A “base” is a platform for something. The base for eye-consciousness is form (externally) and the eye (internally).

You have stated here that “sight”; etc. Occurs in the brain. That is not what the Buddha taught.

Forms exists externally. Sounds exist externally. What can be touched exists externally. Odours and tastes exist externally in the chemical compounds that have those qualities. And mind forms exist externally.

Internally, we have the body, the eye, the ear, nose, tongue and mind.

Sense-Consciousness bridges the gap. That is why the “external” is really “external”. You have stated that the external exists in your mind. This is not the case. The case is that we have name and form. The world may be impermanent - but it is real.

You cannot walk through a wall. That is because it is really there. You can, however touch a wall, taste a wall, or smell a wall - if you get close enough to it. You can see it up close - or from far away. And - if something bounces off of it - it may make a sound THERE which you will register HERE. And sense-consciousness makes that possible.

This is why in neither perception nor non perception sense-Consciousness has been eliminated- however there is an in between. You acknowledge the existence of the sense bases - the sense media; however, you do not register them in your mind. Although your faculties are in tact there is no way to register them as perceptions because sense-consciousness has been eliminated.

Why do you believe that external objects exist only in the mind?
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

sunnat
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Re: media = sense fields = bases ?

Post by sunnat » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:35 am

I don't.

I posted a question about base.

Then a separate set of things about, as you say, western ideas, the
aim is to somehow reconcile that and the various translations and come to a simple understanding.

I think your reply helps.

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Pondera
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Re: media = sense fields = bases ?

Post by Pondera » Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:47 am

You might want to also check out “philosophical realism”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

sunnat
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Re: media = sense fields = bases ?

Post by sunnat » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:55 am

Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw : a discourse on PATICCASAMUPPADA

"Chapter 4 - Vithi-cittas

Vithi cittas differ in kind from bhavanga cittas. Bhavanga citta resembles rebirth citta in respect of objects and process. It is the stream of consciousness that follows rebirth citta, having its root in kamma. It is focused on one of the three objects viz., kamma,
kammanimitta or gatinimitta of the previous existence. It is not concerned with the objects in present life. It is the kind of mental state that we have when sound asleep. But there occur certain changes when we see, hear, smell, eat, have bodily contact or think and these changes in mental phenomena are called six vithi cittas.

Suppose the visual form is reflected on the sensitive rupa of the eye (cakkhupasada), these rupas, each lasting only 17 thought moments, are renewed ceaselessly together with the visual objects and their mental images. A group of eye rupas and a group of visual objects occur simultaneously. But, a rupa is not powerful at the moment of arising and so there is no contact between the eye and its object during the moment of bhavanga citta. In other words, there is no reflection of the visual object on the eye. The bhavanga that passes away before such reflection is called atitabhavanga. Then another bhavanga citta arises and reflection occurs. As a result, the bhavanga citta is disrupted. Its attentiveness to its accustomed object wanes and it begins to consider the visual object. This is termed bhavangacalana or bhavanga in motion. Then another bhavanga takes its place but, it is so weak that with its cessation, the bhavanga stream is cut off. The mind becomes curious about the visual form that the eye sees. This inquiring mind is called avajjana citta and there are five kinds of such cittas corresponding to five sense organs. There follows the eye consciousness, and after its cessation, there arises the citta which receives and attends to the visual object.

Bhavanga is the resultant citta that stems from sankhara, as are eye citta and the receiving citta. They are called vipaka (resultant) cittas. There are two kinds of vipaka cittas, viz., good and bad according to good and bad sankhara. On the other hand avajjana citta (mental advertance) is ethically neither good nor bad; it is not a vipaka citta either. It is termed kiriya citta which means mere action without any kammic effect, the kind of citta that is usually attributed to Arahats.

After the mind has received the visual object, it inquires about its quality, whether it is good, bad, etc., (santirana citta). Then, there follows decision (vutthocitta), that it is good, etc. This leads to javana which means seven impulse moments flashing seven times in succession. Javana occurs very quickly. It has speed and impetus that are absent in other factors of the consciousness process. It is associated with powerful mental factors which may be good or bad such as lobha or alobha. No wonder that evil minds rush towards their objects speedily. Thus, greed makes us inclined to scramble for the desired object and seize it by force, and anger arouses in us the desire to rush and destroy its object blindly. Doubt, restlessness and ignorance, too, speedily associate themselves with their respective objects. The same may be said of good mental factors. Because of their frantic and impulsive nature, the sensual desires are also called kamajavana. After the seven impulse moments, there follow two tadarammana citta moments. This citta is concerned with the object of javana and thus its function is to fulfil the lingering desire of its predecessor.

In the consciousness process the eye vinnana is dependent on eye organ (cakkhu pasada) that arises together with atitabhavanga. Other vinnanas are dependent on the heart (hadaya vatthu) rupa that arises along with other cittas. The 14 cittas from avajjana to the second tadarammana are focused only on present objects. So these 14 cittas are vithi cittas that differ in kind from bhavanga cittas. In other words, they are active cittas. After the cessation of second tadarammana citta that marks the end of the consciousness process, the mental life reverts to the subconsciousness (bhavanga) state that is something like sleep.

An analogy may throw some light on the process (vithi) of consciousness. A man is sleeping under a mango tree. A mango falls and he wakes up. Picking up the fruit, the man examines it. He smells it and knowing that it is ripe, he eats it. Then he thinks over its taste and falls asleep again. Here the bhavanga state with kamma, kamma nimitta and gatinimitta as its objects is like the state of being asleep. Waking up with a start due to the fall of the mango may be like the rising and passing away of bhavanga citta. Reflection after awaking is avajjana. Seeing the visual object is seeing the fruit. Santirana citta is involved when the man examines the fruit. To conclude that it is ripe is vuttho citta. Javana is like eating the fruit and tadarammana is like thinking over its taste. Reverting to bhavanga state is like falling asleep again.

If the visible object is not very clear, it appears on the eye organ after the arising of atitabhavanga twice or thrice. In case of such objects the vithi process does not last till the emergence of tadarammana but ends in javana and sinks into bhavanga state.

If the visible object is still weaker, it is reflected only after the arising of atitabhavanga from five to nine times. The vithi process does not reach javana, but ends after vuttho arises twice or thrice. The vithi that thus ends in vuttho is of great importance in the practice of vipassana. For the yogi who practises constant mindfulness does not seek or attend to defiling sense objects. So reflection is slow, avajjana is weak, eye consciousness is not clear, reception is not proper, inquiry is not effective and decision is indefinite. So after reflecting twice or thrice the mind relapses into bhavanga state. The object is not clear enough to defile the mind and the yogi becomes aware of anicca, dukkha and anatta of the phenomena. There is only bare awareness of seeing and the vithi process is wholly free from defilements.

The vithi process that we have outlined above for the eye equally applies to the ear, nose, tongue and body."

chownah
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Re: media = sense fields = bases ?

Post by chownah » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:10 am

Different people have had different experiences in life and so the see and experience the same thing in different ways......this is why different people translate the same sutta with slightly different words which reflect their own very individual experiences. This is probably a good thing because differnet people reading the different tranlsations will be able to relate to find one which they think resonates with their very own individual experience......thus the lesson contained in the sutta will be more easily incorporated into that individuals knowledge base since that individuals very own knowledge base is also a product of that individuals very own experiences.

An example: When asked the question "What is the differnce between crayfish and crawdaddies?" one might hear either of these two answers: 1. "Crayfish live in creeks." and 2. "Crawdaddies live in cricks." They both say the same thing but depending on the individuals experiences one could very well resonate better than the other......of course the differences in individuals experiences with respect to media or sense files or bases is much deeper and much more complex.
chownah

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Re: media = sense fields = bases ?

Post by pegembara » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:11 am

“‘The six internal bases should be understood.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? There are the eye-base, the ear-base, the nose-base, the tongue-base, the body-base, and the mind-base. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The six internal bases should be understood.’ This is the first set of six.
The organ of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, physical sensations and the mind. 5 + 1
“‘The six external bases should be understood.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? There are the form-base, the sound-base, the odour-base, the flavour-base, the tangible-base, and the mind-object-base. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The six external bases should be understood. ’ This is the second set of six.
The corresponding objects of the former.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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