Buddhism and What it Offers

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: Buddhism and What it Offers

Post by cappuccino » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:23 pm

ToVincent wrote: Now Cappuccino, I think you are too obnubilated by the annihilationist/eternalist dichotomy, so as to deflect subtle nuances.
though what you're saying is very unclear

ToVincent
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Re: Buddhism and What it Offers

Post by ToVincent » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:00 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:23 pm
ToVincent wrote: Now Cappuccino, I think you are too obnubilated by the annihilationist/eternalist dichotomy, so as to deflect subtle nuances.
though what you're saying is very unclear
Nuance, nuance, my dear friend.

You say that "the teaching isn't "no-self"".
However, what Buddha does not want to argue about with Vachagotta, in SN 44.10, is that there is "no self" - but that's what he declares all along. To wit, what Ananda summarizes as:
1. All dhamma are not self.
2. There is no continuity (संतन् saṃtan) in self.
Which is exactly what "no-self", and the illusion of a self is all about.
If Buddha remains silent, it is only because Vachagotta, the eternalist, is waiting for an answer pertaining to eternalism vs. annihiliationism. And this is how I see you interpret it also.
Because you are always keen towards that dichotomy.

The Teaching IS "no-self". And not "the teaching isn't "no-self"", as you say. But one has to avert that Eternalism vs. Annihiliationism stand.
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Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
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In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
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cappuccino
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Re: Buddhism and What it Offers

Post by cappuccino » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:10 pm

ToVincent wrote: The Teaching IS "no-self". And not "the teaching isn't "no-self"", as you say.
well you entirely miss the point of being silent about no-self

you're not silent about no-self, hence you confuse the issue

ToVincent
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Re: Buddhism and What it Offers

Post by ToVincent » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:23 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:10 pm
you're not silent about no-self, hence you confuse the issue[/i]
Yes I know. I should have remained silent WITH YOU.
I am so stupid! :)
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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cappuccino
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Re: Buddhism and What it Offers

Post by cappuccino » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:25 pm

by saying "there is no self" you imply annihilation

rather than thinking more appropriately

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Re: Buddhism and What it Offers

Post by ToVincent » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:17 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:25 pm
by saying "there is no self" you imply annihilation
Have I ever implied that?

And here it goes again, that forlorn dichotomy.
Cappuccino 's fixation on the annihilationist view.

Saying "there is no self" does not necessarily imply annihilation.
The one who acts is one, the one who experiences the result is another.
SN 12.46

"I might not be, and it might not be for me; I will not be, and it will not be for me".
SN 22.81
These are the two views of the annihilationists adressed by the Buddha.

What the Buddha says is that:
((He) teaches the Dhamma by the middle: ‘With ignorance as condition, volitional formations come to be; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.


Note that this latter extract appears also in SN 12.15, which is concerned by the "world" - that is to say the world of senses. So we are here in an avijja (avijjādhātu) , sankhara and viññāṇa, like the ones that occur in satta, in SN 22.47 - https://justpaste.it/vyhx

And this is exactly what I show in my previous posts.
The maintenance of conciousness, etc.
That is to say the non-continuity of the flow. The not-one's owness (alien nature= anicca), and impermanence (anicca) of the dhammas; and consequently the "not-self" nature of the all shebang.

This is a bit different from the "The one who acts is one, the one who experiences the result is another" - or - "I might not be,... ; I will not be" views of the annihilationists. Isn't it?
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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cappuccino
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Re: Buddhism and What it Offers

Post by cappuccino » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:47 pm

ToVincent wrote:
cappuccino wrote: by saying "there is no self" you imply annihilation
Have I ever implied that?
Saying "there is no self" does not necessarily imply annihilation.
it does imply, which is why Buddha was silent

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Re: Buddhism and What it Offers

Post by ToVincent » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:02 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:47 pm
ToVincent wrote:
cappuccino wrote: by saying "there is no self" you imply annihilation
Have I ever implied that?
Saying "there is no self" does not necessarily imply annihilation.
it does imply, which is why Buddha was silent
?!?!?!?!?!? :zzz:
As I said before, Buddha remained silent, because Vachagotta was waiting for an annihilationist kind of answer.

You mix up Buddhist's "not-self", with annihilationist's "not self" - and you make a fixation.

That's your kamma; not mine.

I'm off!
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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cappuccino
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Re: Buddhism and What it Offers

Post by cappuccino » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:04 pm

And if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'
:candle:

On Self, No Self, and Not-self

alfa
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Re: Buddhism and What it Offers

Post by alfa » Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:41 am

ToVincent wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:23 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:10 pm
you're not silent about no-self, hence you confuse the issue[/i]
Yes I know. I should have remained silent WITH YOU.
I am so stupid! :)
So you're saying the self exists, but continuity of self doesn't exist?

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cappuccino
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Re: Buddhism and What it Offers

Post by cappuccino » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:01 am

alfa wrote: So you're saying the self exists
you should read the scriptures

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Re: Buddhism and What it Offers

Post by ToVincent » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:24 am

alfa wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:41 am
So you're saying the self exists, but continuity of self doesn't exist?
Absolutely not.
What the Dhamma says is that there is no continuity, and that this continuity is the illusion. (SN 22.95)
Nothing among the khandhas (or the internal ayatanani) should be regarded as self or belonging to a self (e. g. SN 22.89 (SN 35.85)), (nor blissful) - which continuity (and blissfulness) was supposed to be the intrinsic nature of a self in the Indian philosophy of the time of Buddha.
I have explained that for years now. But for some reason that I do understand, the fact has been swiped under the Upanishadic rug of this forum - and "cleaned up" with much "logorrheanic" trivial red herring. search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&sid= ... 0&start=15

What SN 22.95 is actually saying, is that this continuity is an illusion (santāno, māyāyaṃ), and that consciousness is a stand, a foundation, for that illusion (māyūpamañca viññāṇaṃ).

So what Buddha says is that the "world" [the internal ayatanani (eye, ear,... mano) - forms - the internal ayatanani-consciousness - the internal ayatanani-contact, and whatever feeling arises with the internal ayatanani-contact as condition (SN 35.82)] is empty of self and what belongs to self.

If Buddha had say to Vachagotta, "there is no self" (SN 44.10), this is what he would have meant.
However what Vachagotta would have understood by "there is no self", would have been about the "non-existence" of a self - which was the usual annihilationist view. Vachagotta would have remained in his narrow minded frame of Eternalism vs. Annihilationism (see also SN 44.08 - where Vachagotta seems to understand absolugely nada; if only that all Buddha's disciples say the same thing).
So Buddha remained silent.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

binocular
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Re: Buddhism and What it Offers

Post by binocular » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:51 am

seeker242 wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:54 am
binocular wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:19 am
seeker242 wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:53 pm
People often fail to recognize that this also requires that the Buddha himself was just plain ignorant, or just lying. I don't know about others, but I find it a heck of a lot easier to believe in rebirth, than it is to believe the Buddha himself was just an ignorant fool or liar.
This type of thinking is relevant only to a committed Buddhist. But certainly not to an outsider who isn't even sure whether the historical Buddha existed or not.
I would say it's also relevant to people who want or aspire to be committed Buddhists.
How?
By taking for granted that the historical Buddha existed and attained enlightenment?
By relying on inherently questionable historical evidence to jump to the conclusion that the historical Buddha existed and attained enlightenment, and that the Theravada tradition as you know it and choose is the one which has the most correct understanding of the Buddha's teachings?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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cappuccino
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Re: Buddhism and What it Offers

Post by cappuccino » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:30 pm

ToVincent wrote: So Buddha remained silent.
but you're not silent, you say "there is no self"

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Re: Buddhism and What it Offers

Post by cappuccino » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:42 pm

binocular wrote: How?
By taking for granted that the historical Buddha existed and attained enlightenment?
By relying on inherently questionable historical evidence
faith accepts the teaching

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