Are feelings & perceptions acts of kamma?

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DooDoot
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Are feelings & perceptions acts of kamma?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:59 pm

Dear DW forum

On this topic, it appears a poster had the view that feelings & perceptions in themselves can be kamma (action, deeds).

Is this true?

When the suttas categorize three types of kamma, are feelings & perceptions in themselves included within the 3rd type of kamma, namely, manasā kammaṃ? :shrug:
It is intention that I call deeds.
Cetanāhaṃ, bhikkhave, kammaṃ vadāmi.

For after making a choice one acts
Cetayitvā kammaṃ karoti—

by way of body, speech, and mind.
kāyena vācāya manasā.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.63/en/sujato
Per MN 61, can feeling & perception in themselves lead to harming oneself?
‘Does this act of mind that I want to do lead to hurting myself, hurting others, or hurting both?’ …

‘yannu kho ahaṃ idaṃ manasā kammaṃ kattukāmo idaṃ me manokammaṃ attabyābādhāyapi saṃvatteyya, parabyābādhāyapi saṃvatteyya, ubhayabyābādhāyapi saṃvatteyya—

https://suttacentral.net/mn61/en/sujato
What is "manasā kammaṃ"? Is "manasā kammaṃ" acts of "thought"? Or is "manasā kammaṃ" also mere "feeling & perception"?

Please discuss. Thank you :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: Are feelings & perceptions acts of kamma?

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:17 pm

The way I understand they are Vipaka. (results of previous Kamma)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Are feelings & perceptions acts of kamma?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:51 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:17 pm
The way I understand they are Vipaka. (results of previous Kamma)
This topic is about "kamma" rather than "vipaka". Regardless, what is the evidence for feeling & perception being results of previous kamma? Most suttas about kamma refer to results (vipaka) of "heaven" & "hell". If results of kamma were "feeling & perception", do you think people would fear (with hiri-ottappa) the bad results of bad kamma? :shrug:
.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: Are feelings & perceptions acts of kamma?

Post by sentinel » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:25 am

E.g. upon hearing doctor declared yourself having last stage cancer , as the consequences feeling grieves and perception of the end of the world arises .
:buddha1:

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Volo
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Re: Are feelings & perceptions acts of kamma?

Post by Volo » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:55 am

If we understand under kamma the result (kamma vipaka), than feeling and perception can be a result of past kamma (but not all feelings and perceptions is a result of past kamma). For example, beings in different realms would perceive things differently (e.g. some animals can perceive many more colors than we), also feelings of let's say pain can be caused by the past kamma.

If we are talking about kamma as an intentional action, which leads to accumulation of kamma, than it is the presence of lobha, dosa, moha and alobha, adosa, amoha is what leads to accumulation of new kamma. Although feelings and perception would also accompany this act, they don't lead to new kamma.
AN 3.34 wrote:Bhikkhus, there are these three causes for the origination of kamma. What three? Greed is a cause for the origination of kamma; hatred is a cause for the origination of kamma; delusion is a cause for the origination of kamma.
...
Bhikkhus, there are these three [other] causes for the origination of kamma. What three? Non-greed is a cause for the origination of kamma; non-hatred is a cause for the origination of kamma; non-delusion is a cause for the origination of kamma.
If feeling and perception would lead to new kamma, then even Buddha would accumulate new kamma.

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DooDoot
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Re: Are feelings & perceptions acts of kamma?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:51 am

sentinel wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:25 am
E.g. upon hearing doctor declared yourself having last stage cancer , as the consequences feeling grieves and perception of the end of the world arises
Sounds like sankhara (thinking) above. The idea of "end of my world" doesn't sound like a perception. "Grief" (painful separation from what is loved) does not sound like only a "feeling".
Volo wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:55 am
AN 3.34 wrote:Bhikkhus, there are these three causes for the origination of kamma. What three? Greed is a cause for the origination of kamma; hatred is a cause for the origination of kamma; delusion is a cause for the origination of kamma.
...
Bhikkhus, there are these three [other] causes for the origination of kamma. What three? Non-greed is a cause for the origination of kamma; non-hatred is a cause for the origination of kamma; non-delusion is a cause for the origination of kamma.
The above sounds straightforward.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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form
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Re: Are feelings & perceptions acts of kamma?

Post by form » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:03 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:17 pm
The way I understand they are Vipaka. (results of previous Kamma)
:goodpost:

That is about what they are.

SarathW
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Re: Are feelings & perceptions acts of kamma?

Post by SarathW » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:09 am

Cetana is Kamma (verbal, bodily and mental) another name is Sankara.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

sentinel
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Re: Are feelings & perceptions acts of kamma?

Post by sentinel » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:40 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:51 am
sentinel wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:25 am
E.g. upon hearing doctor declared yourself having last stage cancer , as the consequences feeling grieves and perception of the end of the world arises
Sounds like sankhara (thinking) above. The idea of "end of my world" doesn't sound like a perception. "Grief" (painful separation from what is loved) does not sound like only a "feeling".
Well , if you can delineate between thought and feeling and perception ?! Or you might want to explain what exactly is feeling and also perception ?
:buddha1:

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DooDoot
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Re: Are feelings & perceptions acts of kamma?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:05 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:09 am
Cetana is Kamma (verbal, bodily and mental) another name is Sankara.
Like this?
And what are choices?
Katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā?

There are these six classes of intention:
Chayime, bhikkhave, cetanākāyā—

intention regarding sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and thoughts.
rūpasañcetanā, saddasañcetanā, gandhasañcetanā, rasasañcetanā, phoṭṭhabbasañcetanā, dhammasañcetanā.

These are called choices.
Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā.

Choices originate from contact.
Phassasamudayā saṅkhārasamudayo;

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.56/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

binocular
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Re: Are feelings & perceptions acts of kamma?

Post by binocular » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:04 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:59 pm
Per MN 61, can feeling & perception in themselves lead to harming oneself?
Seems straight-forward enough.

Suppose, for example, a newbie Buddhist, eager to keep the precepts, one day slips up and has a beer, and then feels crappy and thinks, "Oh, I'm such a bad Buddhist, I'll never get this right, it's best if I just quit with Buddhism if I can't even keep the precepts", and then gets drunk, drives a car, causes a collision where he is severely injured and the people in the other car dead.

That's how his feelings and perceptions can lead to harming himself.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: Are feelings & perceptions acts of kamma?

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:01 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:59 pm
Per MN 61, can feeling & perception in themselves lead to harming oneself?
I wouldn't have thought so. In themselves, they might be unpleasant; but they can only lead to future harm via kamma if they are associated with further manokammaṃ. The Buddha felt unpleasant things (stone sliver; back ache) but those feelings were not kammically active. If they could lead to harm in themselves, then the harm would arise regardless of the status of the experiencer.

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