Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

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sentinel
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Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

Post by sentinel » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:29 am

Which part of us can be identified as mind base ?
It is peculiar that we can not be certain of mind base like the other base ?
:coffee:

chownah
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Re: Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:44 pm

Some people have said that the buddha associated the mind with the heart but I haven't seen the sutta which supports this view.....I think that usually people associate the mind with the brain and I'm pretty sure that there is not sutta which support this because I think that the brain was not widely understood at the time of the buddha.
chownah

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Re: Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

Post by sunnat » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:11 pm

Mahanama Sutta

"Suppose a man were to throw a jar of ghee or a jar of oil into a deep lake of water, where it would break. There the shards & jar-fragments would go down, while the ghee or oil would rise upward and separate out. In the same way, if one's mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment, then when the body... is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind... rises upward and separates out."

the mind is in the jar.? the ghee is the brain.?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:25 pm

Greetings Sentinel,
sentinel wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:29 am
Which part of us can be identified as mind base ?
It is peculiar that we can not be certain of mind base like the other base ?
Precisely that you conceive of it as "mind base" means you are already conceiving it as a "me" or "mine", separately from mind-objects.

Nothing should be identified as "mind base", because when there is "mind base" there will be "mind objects", and "contact"(phassa) between the two. Bringing about the cessation of phassa (rather than bringing about its arising) is the pathway to the cessation of dukkha.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Sam Vara
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Re: Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:12 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:25 pm
Greetings Sentinel,
Precisely that you conceive of it as "mind base" means you are already conceiving it as a "me" or "mine", separately from mind-objects.

Nothing should be identified as "mind base", because when there is "mind base" there will be "mind objects", and "contact"(phassa) between the two. Bringing about the cessation of phassa (rather than bringing about its arising) is the pathway to the cessation of dukkha.
Well expressed, and very similar to a sutta which I am trying to recall. Is this a paraphrase of a particular sutta you had in mind?

:anjali:

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Re: Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:58 pm

Greetings Sam,
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:12 pm
Well expressed, and very similar to a sutta which I am trying to recall. Is this a paraphrase of a particular sutta you had in mind?
Thanks. Not consciously, but if you do find the sutta you're thinking of, I'd be keen to see it... both for the benefit of this conversation, and other ones where the meaning and causes of "phassa" come to be discussed.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

sentinel
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Re: Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:25 pm
Greetings Sentinel,
sentinel wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:29 am
Which part of us can be identified as mind base ?
It is peculiar that we can not be certain of mind base like the other base ?
Precisely that you conceive of it as "mind base" means you are already conceiving it as a "me" or "mine", separately from mind-objects.

Nothing should be identified as "mind base", because when there is "mind base" there will be "mind objects", and "contact"(phassa) between the two. Bringing about the cessation of phassa (rather than bringing about its arising) is the pathway to the cessation of dukkha.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Unfortunately I don't know what is the mind base , so I am not conceiving something as mind base .
Didn't the Buddha taught six sense base vs six sense object ? Mind is the number six as Buddha conceived it btw .
When you said contact or phassa in the above , was it similar to what the Buddha taught " phassa " per the dependent origination ?
:coffee:

SarathW
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Re: Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:46 am

Where is the mind base of an Arupavacara beings. (Brahma etc)
Ven. Narada mentioned Buddha has said "It depend on this very thing"
I can't support this with a Sutta.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:04 am

sunnat wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:11 pm
if one's mind (cittaṃ) has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment, then when the body... is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind (cittaṃ) ... rises upward and separates out."
The Mahānāma Sutta refers to "citta", which is not the mind-base ("mano"). Instead, per Satipatthana/Anapanasati, "citta" appears to be an object of the mind-base rather than the mind-base. :smile:
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Re: Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

Post by chownah » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:23 am

sentinel wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:42 am

Unfortunately I don't know what is the mind base , so I am not conceiving something as mind base .
Didn't the Buddha taught six sense base vs six sense object ? Mind is the number six as Buddha conceived it btw .
When you said contact or phassa in the above , was it similar to what the Buddha taught " phassa " per the dependent origination ?
I think that what retrofuturist is saying is that it doesn't really matter what you conceive of as being the mind base.....you will obtain negative results from conceiving any kind of a mind base at all....

I will add that my view is that this is because the mind base is a fabrication and it is not what is fabricated as a mind base which is important but rather it is the process of fabricating the mind base which needs to be examined.
chownah

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Re: Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:04 am

Greetings chownah,

Nicely said.

Spot on. 100%.

:namaste:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

santa100
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Re: Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

Post by santa100 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:05 am

sentinel wrote:Didn't the Buddha taught six sense base vs six sense object ? Mind is the number six as Buddha conceived it btw
Correct, mind base is the 6th base, except it's not material-based like the first five. Ven. Bodhi's note citing the Abhidhamma's definition:
Mindbase/ManaYatana wrote:Mind base(ManaYatana): collective term for all classes of consciousness. One part of this base, the Life Continuum(bhavanga/store consciousness/subliminal consciousness) is the door for the arising of mind consciousness.

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Re: Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:09 am

I agree Santa.
Even other five mind bases are also a part of the mind base.
For instance the physical ear is not the ear base.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

Post by sunnat » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:20 am

If a leg, two legs, arms, various organs, the trunk, neck, lungs (replaced with pumps etc) are amputated, will there still be consciousness.? If the cranium, jaws, tounge, eyes, nose etc, is removed, will there still be consciousness? If nothing except the brain is cut out, will there still be consciousness..? Is there less mind if a finger is cut off.?

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Re: Why Buddha never state which part of us is mind sense base ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:28 am

sunnat wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:20 am
If a leg, two legs, arms, various organs, the trunk, neck, lungs (replaced with pumps etc) are amputated, will there still be consciousness.? If the cranium, jaws, tounge, eyes, nose etc, is removed, will there still be consciousness? If nothing except the brain is cut out, will there still be consciousness..? Is there less mind if a finger is cut off.?
Buddha-Dhamma refers to six-fold consciousness. If a finger is cut off, the result will be the loss of body-consciousness operating via that finger.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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