A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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auto wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:10 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:27 pm
auto wrote: ↑
Not so good take on a stream-enterer, Sutta
Could you please kindly put forward your personal take on a stream-enterer [the one at first stage of enlightenment], if there is any?
SE by indulging in sensual pleasures is how the consciousness re-enters the womb for further development.
Alighting or the descent of consciousness have happened priorly by seeing
hmm, I don't understand very well. But, I think I like what you wrote.
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- "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
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“Mendicants, an uneducated ordinary person speaks of the ocean.“‘Samuddo, samuddo’ti, bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano bhāsati.
But that’s not the ocean in the training of the noble one.Neso, bhikkhave, ariyassa vinaye samuddo.
That’s just a large body of water, a large sea of water.Mahā eso, bhikkhave, udakarāsi mahāudakaṇṇavo.
For a person, the eye is an ocean,Cakkhu, bhikkhave, purisassa samuddo;
and its currents are made of sights.tassa rūpamayo vego.
Someone who can withstand those currents is said to have crossed over the ocean of the eye, with its waves and whirlpools, its sharks, and monsters.Yo taṃ rūpamayaṃ vegaṃ sahati, ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, atari cakkhusamuddaṃ saūmiṃ sāvaṭṭaṃ sagāhaṃ sarakkhasaṃ;
Crossed over, the brahmin stands on the far shore.tiṇṇo pāraṅgato thale tiṭṭhati brāhmaṇo … pe …
And who is a brahmin who has crossed over and stands on the far shore?Katamo ca, bhikkhave, puggalo tiṇṇo pāraṅgato thale tiṭṭhati brāhmaṇo?
It’s a person who realizes the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life. And they live having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements.Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo āsavānaṃ khayā anāsavaṃ cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ diṭṭheva dhamme sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja viharati.
This is called a brahmin who has crossed over and stands on the far shore.Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, puggalo tiṇṇo pāraṅgato thale tiṭṭhati brāhmaṇo.
And who is the person who goes with the stream?Katamo ca, bhikkhave, anusotagāmī puggalo?
It’s a person who takes part in sensual pleasures and does bad deeds.Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo kāme ca paṭisevati, pāpañca kammaṃ karoti.
This is called a person who goes with the stream.Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, anusotagāmī puggalo.
All those people with uncontrolled sensuality,Ye keci kāmesu asaññatā janā,
not free of lust, enjoying sensual pleasures in this life:Avītarāgā idha kāmabhogino;
again and again, they return to birth and old age;Punappunaṃ jātijarūpagāmi te,
those who go with the stream are sunk in craving.Taṇhādhipannā anusotagāmino.
stream entrant has uncontrolled kāma/lust..
Gets to 2nd jhana then falls back to 1st, because remaining/staying in 2nd jhana is not happening yet or some other idea why.
jātijarūpagāmi. Seem 3rd jhana attainer ends this jātijarūpagāmi