Suffering as a gateway to the truth

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Bundokji
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Suffering as a gateway to the truth

Post by Bundokji » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:42 pm

After his enlightenment, the Buddha conveyed what he knew through the four noble truths: suffering, the cause(s) of suffering, the end of suffering and the path to end it.

The teachings utilizes worldly approaches to the truth: by teaching using verbal communication, the Buddha utilized the correspondence theory of truth. The orderliness of the dhamma is based on the coherence theory of truth and the raft simile utilizes the pragmatic theory of truth.

And yet, the Buddha's emphasis on suffering makes his teachings (assumingly) superior to other methods/ways of investigating the truth.

Why and how?

Thanks :anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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cappuccino
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Re: Suffering as a gateway to the truth

Post by cappuccino » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:37 pm

the emphasis is really on stress rather than suffering

however, it first seems to be about suffering

(because suffering is obvious)

chownah
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Re: Suffering as a gateway to the truth

Post by chownah » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:04 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:42 pm
.......
And yet, the Buddha's emphasis on suffering makes his teachings (assumingly) superior to other methods/ways of investigating the truth.

Why and how?
Since the buddha was teaching the end of suffering (or stress if you like) then it seems that emphasizing suffering would be a superior method rather than (for example) ignoring suffering.

I think you are not acknowledging that the buddha did not teach about truth except for as to the truth about the end of suffering (or stress if you like).
chownah

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Bundokji
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Re: Suffering as a gateway to the truth

Post by Bundokji » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:10 pm

chownah wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:04 pm
Bundokji wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:42 pm
.......
And yet, the Buddha's emphasis on suffering makes his teachings (assumingly) superior to other methods/ways of investigating the truth.

Why and how?
Since the buddha was teaching the end of suffering (or stress if you like) then it seems that emphasizing suffering would be a superior method rather than (for example) ignoring suffering.

I think you are not acknowledging that the buddha did not teach about truth except for as to the truth about the end of suffering (or stress if you like).
chownah
I don't know if you agree, but the end of suffering is done through reaching certainty (ignorance being the root cause). To frame the question differently, why and how suffering is the necessary starting point to reach certainty as opposite to other starting points?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Bundokji
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Re: Suffering as a gateway to the truth

Post by Bundokji » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:11 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:37 pm
the emphasis is really on stress rather than suffering

however, it first seems to be about suffering

(because suffering is obvious)
OK, so why and how stress is the best way to reach certainty or truth?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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cappuccino
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Re: Suffering as a gateway to the truth

Post by cappuccino » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:49 pm

Bundokji wrote: OK, so why and how stress is the best way to reach certainty or truth?
As the Buddha says, "Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress."

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Bundokji
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Re: Suffering as a gateway to the truth

Post by Bundokji » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:05 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:49 pm
Bundokji wrote: OK, so why and how stress is the best way to reach certainty or truth?
As the Buddha says, "Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress."
The Buddha had certainty, the highest of truths. When he decided to teach, the entry point is suffering/stress. Out of the realm of possibilities, the Buddha chose this entry point which implies its necessity.

Is it a mere coincidence? Is it simply the nature of things? Is it the Buddha's own bias when he searched for answers to suffering and stumbled by the highest of truths by sheer luck? or is there an underlying logic that can be understood by the mind?

Other religions tried to answer similar questions. For instance, Christianity taught about the original sin, so suffering becomes necessary to cleanse ourselves. Such explanations, however, are nonsensical from a Buddhist perspective.

Is there a Buddhist answer as to why and how suffering is the necessary or most effective entry point to the ultimate truth?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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cappuccino
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Re: Suffering as a gateway to the truth

Post by cappuccino » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:07 pm

existence is endlessly, ceaselessly, stubbornly stressful

chownah
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Re: Suffering as a gateway to the truth

Post by chownah » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:20 pm

The buddha never claimed to have the highest of truths....at least I have never read any sutta that said so....the buddha was clear that he only taught the end of suffering....if you think that the end of suffering is the highest truth then that's your view and I don't think the suttas support that view.....the buddha said that it is possible that there would be other dhammas (other than his) which might also teach the end of suffering (or stress if you like) but those methods would rely on those elements which he presented (I don't think he ever exactly listed which elements exactly)....

I think you are trying to make something bigger out of the buddha dhamma than what the buddha was trying to do.....the buddha chose suffering/stress as the entry point because that is what his teaching is about....the elimination of suffering/stress.....seems like a natural entry point to me...I think the four noble truths is a very good starting point to get the ball rollling so to speak....
chownah

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cappuccino
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Re: Suffering as a gateway to the truth

Post by cappuccino » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:39 pm

there is no higher truth, or state of mind possible

Nirvana is the end

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Bundokji
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Re: Suffering as a gateway to the truth

Post by Bundokji » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:43 pm

chownah wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:20 pm
The buddha never claimed to have the highest of truths....at least I have never read any sutta that said so....the buddha was clear that he only taught the end of suffering....if you think that the end of suffering is the highest truth then that's your view and I don't think the suttas support that view.....the buddha said that it is possible that there would be other dhammas (other than his) which might also teach the end of suffering (or stress if you like) but those methods would rely on those elements which he presented (I don't think he ever exactly listed which elements exactly)....

I think you are trying to make something bigger out of the buddha dhamma than what the buddha was trying to do.....the buddha chose suffering/stress as the entry point because that is what his teaching is about....the elimination of suffering/stress.....seems like a natural entry point to me...I think the four noble truths is a very good starting point to get the ball rollling so to speak....
chownah
Calling the goal "the ultimate" which is linked to knowledge does not imply to you superiority? Describing certain levels of attainment as supramundane does not imply superiority to you? The widely held belief among Buddhists that the Buddha was omniscient does not imply superiority to you?

And if there is superiority, it has to be linked to knowledge, not to suffering (suffering being the mean). Stones do not suffer, we do not describe them as superior. The mere obsession with suffering is a form of pathology (if not directed towards attaining knowledge). Just think of a germophobe!

Even if you raise the hypothetical question: why we are here? not to suffer does not make much sense.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

chownah
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Re: Suffering as a gateway to the truth

Post by chownah » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:55 pm

The buddha said that he only taught the end of suffering/stress.....all this stuff you are spinning has to do with you and your views and not with what the buddha said that he taught.

Also, what he taught does seem to have implications beyond just the end of suffering/stress....but what actually lies in that "beyond" is not taught by the buddha and is only a fabricated construal made by each of us who see somthing "beyond".

The buddha also taught that all views are to be abandoned....but remember he is only teaching this in the context of the end of suffering/stress....you probably think he is talking about something which lies beyond the teaching of the end of sufferieng/stress....that is you fabricated construal...
chownah

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Bundokji
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Re: Suffering as a gateway to the truth

Post by Bundokji » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:04 pm

chownah wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:55 pm
The buddha said that he only taught the end of suffering/stress.....all this stuff you are spinning has to do with you and your views and not with what the buddha said that he taught.

Also, what he taught does seem to have implications beyond just the end of suffering/stress....but what actually lies in that "beyond" is not taught by the buddha and is only a fabricated construal made by each of us who see somthing "beyond".

The buddha also taught that all views are to be abandoned....but remember he is only teaching this in the context of the end of suffering/stress....you probably think he is talking about something which lies beyond the teaching of the end of sufferieng/stress....that is you fabricated construal...
chownah
Your bias, in my opinion, is that you are presenting the negative side of the goal "ending suffering" what you seem to overlook is the positive side:
Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of stress.' Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This noble truth of stress is to be comprehended.' Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before:' This noble truth of stress has been comprehended.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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cappuccino
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Re: Suffering as a gateway to the truth

Post by cappuccino » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:16 pm

chownah wrote: you probably think he is talking about something which lies beyond the teaching of the end of sufferieng/stress....
It is
the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44

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bkmudita
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Re: Suffering as a gateway to the truth

Post by bkmudita » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:20 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:42 pm
After his enlightenment, the Buddha conveyed what he knew through the four noble truths: suffering, the cause(s) of suffering, the end of suffering and the path to end it.

The teachings utilizes worldly approaches to the truth: by teaching using verbal communication, the Buddha utilized the correspondence theory of truth. The orderliness of the dhamma is based on the coherence theory of truth and the raft simile utilizes the pragmatic theory of truth.

And yet, the Buddha's emphasis on suffering makes his teachings (assumingly) superior to other methods/ways of investigating the truth.

Why and how?
Why the Buddha left his family life to pursue a samana's life? Because he saw the dukkha of human life, which is bounded by cycles of death and rebirth. Within it, he saw the ultimate unsatisfactory and painful nature(that is dukkha) of life in this samsāra world. He wanted to seek deathless. And he thought he found the path toward deathless. So he wanted to help those likeminded.
So the answer is, he taught what he perceived.
All Our Practice Efforts, Directed to the Cessation of the Taints. - vimutta.ca

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