Results of past karma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by cappuccino » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:41 am


form
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by form » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:15 am

Zom wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:41 pm
False statement. It is kamma.
You don't really understand what kamma is. Obvious social causes and effects seen here and now are not kamma. For example, you steal something, police finds you and puts you in a jail. There is no kamma here. Kamma of stealing - is being poor. The fruit of this kamma will appear much later, even in this life, when kammic effect will make such conditions for you to be poor (or poorer to some extent at the very least). Or, much likely, it won't bring fruit in this life, but you'll get a result while rebirth process, for example, you ll be reborn in a poor family.
What about the mental tendencies that has accumulated in the mental continuum to take what is not given that has promote the action of stealing?

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seeker242
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by seeker242 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:03 am

alfa wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:21 am
I am talking about the results of actions here, NOT intent. If I am going to experience the results of a certain action I've performed in the past, will that result be an OUTWARD event only (such as losing one's job). Or will an inward event (such as pain over losing one's job) happen along with it?
Alright. Although, I was addressing the idea that you have no control over mind states if it's both, which isn't true. Even the ripening of past kamma can be influenced by current action. The story of Aṅgulimāla is a perfect example. Actions that would have sent him to hell, only appeared for a moment, because of how he acted after performing that bad kamma.

sunnat
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by sunnat » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:46 pm

I'm sorry seeker, I can't understand. When you say " the ripening of past kamma" do you mean the ripening of the fruit of past kamma.?

Also can you restate (please) "Actions that would have sent him to hell, only appeared for a moment, because of how he acted after performing that bad kamma."

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:53 pm

See the Aṅgulimāla Sutta
Then Venerable Aṅgulimāla, having put on the robes, and carrying the bowl and double robe, he entered Sāvatthi for alms. Then on that occasion someone threw a clod and hit his body, someone else threw a stick and hit his body, someone else threw a potsherd and hit his body. Then, Venerable Aṅgulimāla, with his head split, dripping with blood, with his almsbowl broken, with his double robe torn, approached the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw the Venerable Aṅgulimāla coming from a distance. Seeing him he said to the Venerable Aṅgulimāla: “Endure it, brahmin, endure it. Your kamma that would have born fruit for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years in hell is bearing fruit here and now.”
See also: The Debate of King Milinda
2. “You say that a man who has lived an evil life for a hundred years can, by thinking of the Buddha at the moment of his death, be reborn among the gods; and that a good man can, by one bad deed, be born in hell. These two things I do not believe.”

“What do you think, O king. Would a tiny stone float on water without a boat?”
“No.”

“But even a cartload of stones would float in a boat. So you should think of good deeds as a boat.”
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

binocular
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by binocular » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:29 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:29 pm
You are wrong in claiming that a positive action in this life can only and exclusively bear fruit in subsequent lives.
I didn't say that. I say that most of actions here and now with direct obvious results have nothing to do with kamma.
With what do they have to do, then?

sentinel
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by sentinel » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:43 pm

Do you take human born deformed , handicapped as kamma in result ?
Do you think by taking birth as an animal sort of kamma ripening ?
How do you explain if one born into rich family and inherited it and then gamble away with the money ? Being poor because of gambling is not karma . This is an outcome due to ignorance and greeds and many other conditions .
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

justindesilva
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by justindesilva » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:58 pm

Is kamma vipaka or kamma always responsible to whatever that happens to a being , I mean sickness or death or prosperity etc.
I have read in a sutta ( which sutta is forgotten by me)
about panca niyama damma.
Damma or actions that befalls on a being can be due to:
Citta niyama ( mind or thoughts)
Utu niyama ( seasonal changes or physical occurring)
Damma niyama ( natural behaviour of universal factors)
Bija niyama ( hereditary functions)
Kamma niyama ( due to past kamma)
Kamma here is one of five occurings that can befall on a person in causing sickness death or day to day happenings.
Yet with (avidya paccaya sankara) kamma has an important bearing on formation of the physical and brain and mind of a person.
With tsunamis and calamities of nature utu niyama , I believe, is responsible for whatever happens to the beings facing it.
Yet with ananthariya papa the result of the doer is definitely following kamma niyama with no escape from
Grave kamma vipaka .
Suttas such as velama sutta or salt crtstal sutta explain how the density of karma varies on a person during the journey of samsara.

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seeker242
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by seeker242 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:00 pm

sunnat wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:46 pm
I'm sorry seeker, I can't understand. When you say " the ripening of past kamma" do you mean the ripening of the fruit of past kamma.?
Vipaka is what is meant or when consequences of those actions appear.
Also can you restate (please) "Actions that would have sent him to hell, only appeared for a moment, because of how he acted after performing that bad kamma."
That would be something like: after murdering he turned to and practiced what the Buddha taught, which prevented him from going to hell for murdering. If he had not done that after murdering, he would have gone to hell.

form
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by form » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:41 pm

Everything we perceived are due to causes and effects, not understanding the complexity do not mean they come about by means other than that.

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Zom
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by Zom » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:54 pm

Then prove it or at least show some concrete sutta references or literature to back up your claim. You've done neither one so far.
I already proved that saying that if that was the case, then "I steal ---> And because of that I became rich" is kamma too. But obviously it is not, and even Buddha says about that in one SN sutta.
With what do they have to do, then?
What is kamma? This is an extra (some might even say "mysterious") force which is released in the world by certain mental intention of a certain living being. This hidden (undetected) process goes on and on, affecting millions of events in the world - and at some point it brings a fruit: certain circumstances created by it, which affect you directly in a good or bad way. For example, you killed a person. Kammic process is released. And then it creates such circumstances in the world, in which you get a serious decease and die because of it in pain. And that was kammic fruit of your previous killing. No direct visible connection in Action -> Result. But when something can be explained fully without such force, that means, this is not kammic result. For example, you was a good student and prepared yourself for exam. When you passed the exam, this result is not some mysterious kamma, but this result is direct outcome of your previous learning and preparation. Saying that kamma works here is just like saying there is some deity in the sky who helped you to pass this exam. Such explanation would add additional unnecessary mystic force. Obviously, there was no such divine help from above. But some people keep explaining literally everything by kamma.

santa100
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by santa100 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:42 pm

I already proved that saying that if that was the case, then "I steal ---> And because of that I became rich" is kamma too. But obviously it is not, and even Buddha says about that in one SN sutta.
That's not a proof. That's your own interpretation. And I already said this, just because some positive/negative kamma of this life doesn't bear the appropriate fruit the same life does not give you the right to claim that there's no such thing as current life kamma. By the way, you still have not answered my questions below:
working hard is a volitional/intentional act that'll result in some wholesome results either in this life or the next. You are wrong in claiming that a positive action in this life can only and exclusively bear fruit in subsequent lives. That's just absurd because with that kind of view, Ven. Angulimala's attainment of arahantship would be entirely due to the wholesome deeds of his past lives. All the things he's done in his present life like laying down the knife, renouncing his evil way to become a monk, all the diligent cultivation/practices of the Path, etc. would've had absolutely nothing to do with his attainment of arahantship?? By the way, please provide exact sutta references where it explicitly says that it's impossible to bear fruit in this current life.

sunnat
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by sunnat » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:20 am

Ok. That's good. Thank you

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Zom
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by Zom » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:40 am

does not give you the right to claim that there's no such thing as current life kamma
You read my posts carelessly, since nowhere had I stated that. I just explained what types of causes/effects in this life are not kamma and why.

binocular
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by binocular » Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:54 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:54 pm
With what do they have to do, then?
What is kamma? This is an extra (some might even say "mysterious") force which is released in the world by certain mental intention of a certain living being. This hidden (undetected) process goes on and on, affecting millions of events in the world - and at some point it brings a fruit: certain circumstances created by it, which affect you directly in a good or bad way. For example, you killed a person. Kammic process is released. And then it creates such circumstances in the world, in which you get a serious decease and die because of it in pain. And that was kammic fruit of your previous killing. No direct visible connection in Action -> Result. But when something can be explained fully without such force, that means, this is not kammic result. For example, you was a good student and prepared yourself for exam. When you passed the exam, this result is not some mysterious kamma, but this result is direct outcome of your previous learning and preparation. Saying that kamma works here is just like saying there is some deity in the sky who helped you to pass this exam. Such explanation would add additional unnecessary mystic force. Obviously, there was no such divine help from above. But some people keep explaining literally everything by kamma.
Interesting. I haven't heard this explanation before.

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