Results of past karma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
santa100
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by santa100 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:37 am

alfa wrote:My question here is: losing job (outward) is karma vipaka. But losing peace of mind as a result (inward) - is this also karma vipaka?
Not sure how useful those words outward/inward are in determining kamma vipaka. One could lose his job due to instant kamma of illegal behaviors in the office (got caught cheating, stealing, inappropriate conduct toward opposite sex, etc..) or distant kamma of past lives (ie. losing his job even if he's a good hard-working employee in this life). About losing peace of mind, this is definitely something that one can control/manage/prevent it from happening, hence one can't blame it on kamma vipaka. So instead of outward/inward, maybe terms like controllable/manageable/preventable would be more appropriate to evaluate kamma vipaka.

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Zom
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by Zom » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:38 am

One could lose his job due to instant kamma of illegal behaviors in the office
This is not kamma.
My question here is: losing job (outward) is karma vipaka. But losing peace of mind as a result (inward) - is this also karma vipaka?
No.

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seeker242
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by seeker242 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:00 pm

alfa wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:04 am

If vipaka is both outward and inward, then we have no control over mind states.
That's not true, because you can control your intentional actions, which thereby influences, or exerts control over, which kind of vipaka will arise to begin with.

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Re: Results of past karma

Post by santa100 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:02 pm

This is not kamma.
False statement. It is kamma.

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Zom
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by Zom » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:41 pm

False statement. It is kamma.
You don't really understand what kamma is. Obvious social causes and effects seen here and now are not kamma. For example, you steal something, police finds you and puts you in a jail. There is no kamma here. Kamma of stealing - is being poor. The fruit of this kamma will appear much later, even in this life, when kammic effect will make such conditions for you to be poor (or poorer to some extent at the very least). Or, much likely, it won't bring fruit in this life, but you'll get a result while rebirth process, for example, you ll be reborn in a poor family.

santa100
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by santa100 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:00 pm

You don't really understand what kamma is. Obvious social causes and effects seen here and now are not kamma. For example, you steal something, police finds you and puts you in a jail. There is no kamma here. Kamma of stealing - is being poor. The fruit of this kamma will appear much later, even in this life, when kammic effect will make such conditions for you to be poor (or poorer to some extent at the very least). Or, much likely, it won't bring fruit in this life, but you'll get a result while rebirth process, for example, you ll be reborn in a poor family.
Then you absolutely have no clue about kamma. The intentional action of cheating/stealing/misconduct is the kamma that leads to a negative consequence: the guy got fired from his job. Similarly, if the police puts you in jail because you've committed a deliberate and intentional act of stealing, that's your kamma right there, no need to blame it on some unwholesome previous-lives kamma. Saying that there's only and exclusively kamma of past lives and denying present life kamma is absolute nonsense.

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Zom
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by Zom » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:47 pm

Similarly, if the police puts you in jail because you've committed a deliberate and intentional act of stealing, that's your kamma right there
If that is the case, then we have absurd situations where bad kammic deeds lead to good kammic results, like when police didn't get you, and you become rich because you managed to steal something valuable 8-) Action (steal) -> Result (rich)

But the truth is that "action -> immediate direct and expected result" is not a kamma. Becoming rich because of stealing is not kamma, as well as going to jail because of stealing is not kamma. But becoming poor in some distant future (even in this live, but ofc not immediately) can be kamma of stealing. Or suddenly getting robbed can be kamma. Or getting a bad rebirth can be kamma of stealing too.

If the same way, becoming rich because of working hard is not kamma. But winning a lottery 3 times in a row with probability 0,00000000000001% is kamma, obviously.

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Re: Results of past karma

Post by santa100 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:18 pm

becoming rich because of working hard is not kamma. But winning a lottery 3 times in a row with probability 0,00000000000001% is kamma, obviously.
Wrong, working hard is a volitional/intentional act that'll result in some wholesome results either in this life or the next. You are wrong in claiming that a positive action in this life can only and exclusively bear fruit in subsequent lives. That's just absurd because with that kind of view, Ven. Angulimala's attainment of arahantship would be entirely due to the wholesome deeds of his past lives. All the things he's done in his present life like laying down the knife, renouncing his evil way to become a monk, all the diligent cultivation/practices of the Path, etc. would've had absolutely nothing to do with his attainment of arahantship?? By the way, please provide exact sutta references where it explicitly says that it's impossible to bear fruit in this current life.
Last edited by santa100 on Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bridif1
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by bridif1 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:27 pm

santa100 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:18 pm
Wrong, working hard is a volitional/intentional act that'll result in some wholesome results either in this life or the next.
Hi Santa100!

I'm not saying that this interpretation is wrong; not at all.

But have you considered that this line of thought is not thay different from the one christians have with the idea of "god works in mysterious ways" and "god has a plan for all of us"?
These two statements are, in my opinion, a way to confer a sense of (human) justice to reality and the universe.

In my opinion, the idea of kamma under the Buddha's interpretation seems to be pointing somewhere else; namely, to the results of "our" intention in "our own" minds. Or in a less conventional sense, how past intentions condition future intentions.

Kind regards!

santa100
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by santa100 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:35 pm

bridif1 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:27 pm
In my opinion, the idea of kamma under the Buddha's interpretation seems to be pointing somewhere else; namely, to the results of "our" intention in "our own" minds. Or in a less conventional sense, how past intentions condition future intentions.

Kind regards!
Hi bridif1, but my question is where in the suttas do you find they say that the results one gets in this present life are strictly and exclusively due to his past-lives kamma only? Where do you see they rule out the effect of present-live kamma? Just because present-life kamma doesn't give immediate result in some cases (ie. good worker who still got laid off, etc.) doesn't justify the conclusion that it has zero effect in all cases! Hence the question I posed to Zom, feel free to answer for yourself if you like:
You [Zom] are wrong in claiming that a positive action in this life can only and exclusively bear fruit in subsequent lives. That's just absurd because with that kind of view, Ven. Angulimala's attainment of arahantship would be entirely and exclusively due to the wholesome deeds of his past lives. All the things he's done in his present life like laying down the knife, renouncing his evil way to become a monk, all the diligent cultivation/practices of the Path, etc. would've had absolutely nothing to do with his attainment of arahantship??

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bridif1
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by bridif1 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:48 pm

santa100 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:35 pm
Hi bridif1, but my question is where in the suttas do you find they say that the results one gets in this present life are strictly and exclusively due to his past-lives kamma only? Where do you see they rule out the effect of present-live kamma? Just because present-life kamma doesn't give immediate result in some cases (ie. good worker who still got laid off, etc.) doesn't justify the conclusion that it has zero effect in all cases!
I absolutely agree with you.

My analysis is only focussing on the effects of past kamma on the mind. And the fruits expressed in the present seem to come from the interconditionality of past kamma, present kamma and sense-stimuli.

I just wrote here because it called my attention the conversation about the relation of getting fired and the intentions of the one getting fired. In my opinion, the buddhist interpretation of kamma, in most cases, is not interested in the outer effects of our intentions.
Good people can get fired only because their principles and values disagree with the Boss' values.

Kind regards!

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Zom
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by Zom » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:29 pm

You are wrong in claiming that a positive action in this life can only and exclusively bear fruit in subsequent lives.
I didn't say that. I say that most of actions here and now with direct obvious results have nothing to do with kamma.

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Re: Results of past karma

Post by cappuccino » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:25 am

Zom wrote: I say that most of actions here and now with direct obvious results have nothing to do with kamma.
karma determines their actions here & now

though karma is intent

santa100
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Re: Results of past karma

Post by santa100 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:48 am

I say that most of actions here and now with direct obvious results have nothing to do with kamma.
Then prove it or at least show some concrete sutta references or literature to back up your claim. You've done neither one so far.

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Re: Results of past karma

Post by alfa » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:21 am

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:00 pm
alfa wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:04 am

If vipaka is both outward and inward, then we have no control over mind states.
That's not true, because you can control your intentional actions, which thereby influences, or exerts control over, which kind of vipaka will arise to begin with.
I am talking about the results of actions here, NOT intent. If I am going to experience the results of a certain action I've performed in the past, will that result be an OUTWARD event only (such as losing one's job). Or will an inward event (such as pain over losing one's job) happen along with it?

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