What is nirvana/heaven?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Grigoris
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Re: What is nirvana/heaven?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:21 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:20 pm
well this teaching is amazing
Yes, you are quite right.

But your interpretation/conclusion is deluded.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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cappuccino
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Re: What is nirvana/heaven?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:25 pm

:candle:
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Grigoris
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Re: What is nirvana/heaven?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:28 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:25 pm
I'm Buddhist, I'm not an annihilationist
You can justify it to yourself any way you like.

The heavenly realms are samsaric realms. They are conditioned. Nirvana is not conditioned.

The realm of infinite space is a samsaric realm.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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cappuccino
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Re: What is nirvana/heaven?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:29 pm

of course, Nirvana is unconditioned

however, unconditioned is a state of mind

hence realm / dimension (now & later)

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Grigoris
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Re: What is nirvana/heaven?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:36 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:29 pm
of course, Nirvana is unconditioned

however, unconditioned is a state of mind

hence realm / dimension (now & later)
Yeah... Okay...
crazed.jpg
crazed.jpg (23.1 KiB) Viewed 212 times
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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cappuccino
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Re: What is nirvana/heaven?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:40 pm

but it's closer to annihilation than existence

:)

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Dhammanando
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Re: What is nirvana/heaven?

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:43 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:20 pm
'How is it possible to permanently end contact?
Via the Eightfold Path.
Saying, “Good, friend,” the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the venerable Sāriputta’s words. Then they asked him a further question: “But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view…and has arrived at this true Dhamma?”—“There might be, friends.

“When, friends, a noble disciple understands contact, the origin of contact, the cessation of contact, and the way leading to the cessation of contact, in that way he is one of right view…and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

“And what is contact, what is the origin of contact, what is the cessation of contact, what is the way leading to the cessation of contact? There are these six classes of contact: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, mind-contact. With the arising of the sixfold base there is the arising of contact. With the cessation of the sixfold base there is the cessation of contact. The way leading to the cessation of contact is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view…right concentration.

“When a noble disciple has thus understood contact, the origin of contact, the cessation of contact, and the way leading to the cessation of contact…he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view…and has arrived at this true Dhamma.”

Sammādiṭṭhi Sutta, MN 9
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

ToVincent
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Contact:

Re: What is nirvana/heaven?

Post by ToVincent » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:40 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:20 pm
The Blessed One said this: “Contact, bhikkhus, is one end; the arising of contact is the second end; the cessation of contact is in the middle; and craving is the seamstress. For craving sews one to the production of this or that state of existence. It is in this way that a bhikkhu directly knows what should be directly known; fully understands what should be fully understood; and by doing so, in this very life he makes an end of suffering.”
(AN. 6:61)
'How is it possible to permanently end contact?
Contact (phassa) is a crucial concept.
Aside from recasting its usual translation, into a more proper rendition, as follows, phassa is a key concept in Buddha's Teaching.
"Contact" is the transfer of the property (phassa) of the object's khandhas & dhatus to oneself.

It is not yet the appropriation (upādāna) per se; but the coming together of the two fields of sensory experiences (external & internal). It is an adjunction. The external is added to the internal, but it is not yet an essential part of the latter.

In Sanskrit, the root meaning of phassa (sparśa), has the following meaning:

Fall to the lot of, a.k.a. escheat - viz. a transfered possession (possession whose ownership changes).
Come upon >> take possession of. (Root spṛś)
In the usual extract: Tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso
Saṅgati (from saṅgacchati [saṁ+gacchati] [saṃ-gam] = come together).
Union, combination.
We know through the Teaching, that:
With the "six fields of sensory experiences" (salayatana) as condition, contact comes to be (SN 12.12)
Dependent on the dyad there is contact. There are just six fields of sensory experiences, contacted through which—or through a certain one among them—the fool experiences pleasure and pain. (SN 12.19).

But one essential and pivotal point in Buddhism (and in Indian philosophy of the time), is exposed in SN 12.24.
And this has to do with the famous concept of "the middle way".

Indeed, "phassa" explains the idiosyncrasy of Buddhism.

What Buddha says, is that suffering (or pleasure) is born (arise) on account of" (Paṭiccasamuppanna) phassa.

Some ascetics of the time thought that suffering and pleasure were created by others. Therefore, at death time, everything would disappear. These were the annihilationists.

Others thought that suffering and pleasure were created by oneself. Therefore, at death time, everything would remain. This was the Upanishadic creed of the eternalists; who believed in a continuous "blissful oneself" - once that permanent self would understand the necessity to merge the internal with the external as one - (a creed that perdure in the Advaita Vedanta creed of today's brahmanic Hinduist creed.

However, the Buddha taught the middle way of a suffering (or pleasure,) that is born on account of phassa. That is to say, as a result of the combination of both the external and internal fields of sensory experiences.

SA 1164 is a bit clearer than AN 6.61, for that matter.
觸是一邊 Contact is one end.
觸集是二邊 To gather the contact is the second end.
Here, we see that 集 jí: gather, goes along with the root meaning of the Sanskrit sparśa.
受是其中 Feeling is in this (中 = middle).
愛為縫紩 Desire is what joins them.

I suppose that, from the above, it is a bit easier to understand how to end contact permanently.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Grigoris
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Re: What is nirvana/heaven?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:45 pm

“When a noble disciple has thus understood contact, the origin of contact, the cessation of contact, and the way leading to the cessation of contact…he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view…and has arrived at this true Dhamma.”

Sammādiṭṭhi Sutta, MN 9
This, seems to me, to be talking about understanding contact. Thus what one overcomes is ignorance in regards to contact, not contact per se.

As long as one possesses at least one of the six senses, then there will be contact.

If one does the full analysis of the Dependent Origination then one can trace "everything" back to Ignorance.

I believe that the above quoted teaching, as well as others similar to it, focuses on the analysis of a particular aspect of DO, or a particular aspect of the skandha. They are not meant to be taken as "stand alone" teachings.

You say that the Noble Eightfold Path leads to the cessation of contact. How exactly, if not through the annihilation of ignorance?

And if it is a "stand alone" statement, which exactly is the practice that stops contact? How can one stop the six sense organs from functioning so that contact does not occur?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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cappuccino
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Re: What is nirvana/heaven?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:17 pm

not contacting chocolate with your tongue

hence you feel nothing, etc

ToVincent
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Contact:

Re: What is nirvana/heaven?

Post by ToVincent » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:30 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:45 pm
And if it is a "stand alone" statement, which exactly is the practice that stops contact? How can one stop the six sense organs from functioning so that contact does not occur?
Modern progresses show that the information in the object is not the same than the information in the word we use to express this object.
The Upanishadsic creed wanted to make one of both. However, the Buddha said that this was useless for two reasons: the khandhas (and their ensuing dhammas and dhatus), as well as the internal ayatanani (eye, ear, etc.) are not "ours" in the first place (SN 22.33 & SN 35.138); and moreover, they are impermanent.
So what would be the use, to make them "one".

So one has to avoid "contact" (phassa) between the external & the internal ayatanani (fields of sensory experiences).
As far as the practice to stop making contact, this might help:
https://justpaste.it/1bz1c

To summarize, it has to do with restraining the indriyas to their "normal" level.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

justindesilva
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Re: What is nirvana/heaven?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:42 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:17 pm
not contacting chocolate with your tongue

hence you feel nothing, etc
Nirvana is also expressed by anidassana , meaning where consciousness has no base. It also means that contact and consciousness does not meet. Vingnana or consciousness can arise in a conditioned state to make way for contact ( phassa). This is well explained in paticca samuppada vibhangha sutta.
An arupa mind yet conditioned can arise in a heaven which is one of 31 realms.
Nirvana is an unconditioned stare beyond the 31 realms all , which are conditioned.

inyenzi
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Re: What is nirvana/heaven?

Post by inyenzi » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:42 am

What, exactly, is the difference between the way in which an atheist materialist views brain death, and parinibbana?

Functionally, they are identical, no?

The ending of this life, with no new rebirth. You don't go anywhere beyond death because there was no substantial "you" to begin with (just a process sustained by brain function/dependently originated khandas).

As far as I can tell, the Buddha refused to answer the question as to where we go after death (I assume because the question itself assume a view of a substantial self).

If I don't believe in rebirth, but understand the first noble truth, shouldn't I just induce brain death to reach parinibbana?

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cappuccino
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Re: What is nirvana/heaven?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:41 pm

inyenzi wrote: shouldn't I just induce brain death to reach parinibbana?
you know better

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Nicolas
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Re: What is nirvana/heaven?

Post by Nicolas » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:41 pm

inyenzi wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:42 am
If I don't believe in rebirth, but understand the first noble truth, shouldn't I just induce brain death to reach parinibbana?
The problem with this is that, regardless of your belief, if there is indeed "rebirth", then parinibbana will not be reached by inducing brain death in an unawakened one.
The Buddha did not teach suicide for a reason, specifically because according to his teachings, there is "rebirth".

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