Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

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chownah
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by chownah » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:15 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:28 am
Greetings chownah,
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:49 am
It is my understanding that the lowest (if one wants to view heirarchically) of the eight kinds of nobles has not yet achieved stream entry...
To use the schema you raise, we could speak of stream entrants and stream winners. To my understanding they are both noble.

Stream-entrants have access to "right view without effluents", and that there is the forerunner of the path that they follow to stream-winning and beyond.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Your using the word "stream-entrants" seems to indicate that they have achieved stream entry while thanissaro's use of the phrase "the person on the path to stream-entry" seems to more clearly indicate the stream entry has not yet occured.

Also, you mention the schema as the one I raised....I think that this is the schema that the buddha raised in the sutta I brought and is (I think) found in other suttas as well. I think the idea or the four pairs of noble ones is a common "schema". Anyway....it does seem that there are (using your definitions) puthajjana who are noble and who have not achieved stream entry.

Also, can you bring a reference (preferably a sutta reference) which supports your ideas about those persons on the path to stream-entry and right view without effluents?
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:37 pm

Greetings chownah,
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:49 am
Your using the word "stream-entrants" seems to indicate that they have achieved stream entry while thanissaro's use of the phrase "the person on the path to stream-entry" seems to more clearly indicate the stream entry has not yet occured.
No, that's because you're changing definitions mid-conversation and tying yourself in knots. Even to use Thanissaro's translation...
in the same way, this Doctrine and Discipline is the abode of such mighty beings as stream-winners and those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry"
There is no "the person on the path to stream-entry" classification in the eightfold assembly. Rather, the eightfold assembly is classified by the four types of noble ones (arahant, non-returner, once-returner, stream-winner), split into two by those who are on the path to that stage, and those who have realised the fruit of that stage.

Note "on the path" (i.e. the Noble Eightfold Path)
Anyway....it does seem that there are (using your definitions) puthajjana who are noble and who have not achieved stream entry.
No, that's merely a wrong conclusion borne of your confusion.
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:15 pm
Also, can you bring a reference (preferably a sutta reference) which supports your ideas about those persons on the path to stream-entry and right view without effluents?
chownah
Yes, MN 117.

As is often pointed out:
- It speaks of "Right View" as the forerunner of the path (as do other suttas)
- It differentiates between "right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions", which is puthujjana Right View, and "the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path"

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by chownah » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:51 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:58 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:48 pm
Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:33 pm
Do you mean that the householder is stream entrant?
They can be, but it doesn't mean they are.

You are evidently confused. Let me try to clarify - one relates to ordination status (I.e. Not ordained = householder), the other relates to enlightenment status (I.e. Puthujjana = not enlightened, not noble).

Metta,
Paul. :)
puthujjana means not noble (from this post)
puthujjana means not yet achieved stream-entry.(from your previous post)
.....but the lowest of the eight kinds of noble ones IS noble AND as yet has not achieved stream entry.....seems like a contradiction....
chownah
I see that I have made an error in logic....if there is a contradiction as I claimed above it is not the contradiction I was thinking of when I posted.

If puthujjana is not a noble person who has not achieved stream entry then that means that a person on the path to stream entry (thanissaro's term for the person who is practicing for the fruits of stream entry I guess) is not a puthujjana because a person on the path to steam entry is noble which in itself indicates that the person is not puthujjana.....this is quite independent of the issue of whether a person on the path to stream entry and has not achieved stream entry is the same thing as a person practicing for the fruits of stream entry or is the same thing as a person which retrofuturist calls a stream entrant....

chownah

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by sunnat » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:17 pm

The Venerable Ledi Sayadaw wrote :

Whoever has been successful in establishing purity of moral conduct and purity of mind
should then try to establish the wisdom group of right view and right intention so as to destroy the latency level of personality view. *

To have established these two path factors means the establishment in due order of the five purities of wisdom, which are:
purity of view,
purity of overcoming doubt,
purity by knowledge and vision of what is and what is not the path,
purity by knowledge and vision of the practice-path,
purity by supermundane knowledge and vision.

"... when personality view (all three levels) is extinguished, the results of past evil kamma leading to subhuman birth cannot arise, nor can more evil kamma be made."

"He then becomes a noble one (ariya) in the noble supermundane plane, one to be reborn in successively higher planes of existence."

"These are the factors, right action, right speech, right livelihood, to use for the destruction of the third level of personality view, the transgressive level, when evil unwholesome kamma, fourfold of speech and threefold of bodily action, is, committed."

"Right effort, mindfulness, and concentration, the factors of the concentration group, are the factors to use for the destruction of the second level of personality view, the obsessive level, when the threefold evil unwholesome kamma of the mind is made."

* "Right view and right intention, comprising the wisdom group, are the factors to use for the destruction of the first level of personality view, the latency level, which has always existed in the life-continuities of beings in the beginningless round of rebirths."


So, one need not be considered noble to walk the path. One becomes noble.
The "entry point" for the puthujjana on the path to becoming noble is easy at: virtue "Right speech, action, and livelihood, which are the constituents of the morality group", in the process of practicing, through direct experience (meditation) right effort, mindfulness and concentration, then (wisdom, abandoning ignorance) right view and right thought (or right intention) become known. " :." purity by knowledge and vision of what is and what is not the path, purity by knowledge and vision of the practice-path,"

The path is for all.
Last edited by sunnat on Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by chownah » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:43 pm

sunnat wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:17 pm
The path is for all.
If you can see the path then you can follow it.
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:33 pm

I'm sorry, but there must be a subtlety in terminology here that I don't understand:
retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:37 pm
There is no "the person on the path to stream-entry" classification in the eightfold assembly. Rather, the eightfold assembly is classified by the four types of noble ones (arahant, non-returner, once-returner, stream-winner), split into two by those who are on the path to that stage, and those who have realised the fruit of that stage.
In what sense is the category of the eightfold assembly highlighted in red not the same thing as "person on the path to stream-entry"?

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:00 pm

I agree with Mike.
In my opinion faith follower and Dhamma follower both are noble people even though they have not eradicated any fetters.
This is a bit of a conundrum. That is why Abhidhamma say that Magga and Phala attain simultaneously and there is no time lag.
If that is the case faith followers and dhamma followers are not Ariya but they follow the NEFP with blind faith. However, they are assured stream-entry in this very life.

SN25.1-10 Good news!! Many of us in this forum are assured stream entry!

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34710&p=518646&hilit=
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:12 pm

Ud5.5 is a parallel of AN8.20, so here is an English+Pali version of the relevant passage about the eight-fold assembly:
In the same way, great beings live in this teaching and training, and these are those beings.
The stream-enterer and the one practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry. The once-returner and the one practicing to realize the fruit of once-return. The non-returner and the one practicing to realize the fruit of non-return. The perfected one, and the one practicing for perfection.
evamevaṃ kho, bhikkhave, ayaṃ dhammavinayo mahataṃ bhūtānaṃ āvāso.
Tatrime bhūtā—sotāpanno sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno … pe … arahā arahattāya paṭipanno.

https://suttacentral.net/an8.20/en/sujato#9.8
The four pairs are, it seems mahataṃ bhūtānaṃ, "great beings". Does this necessarily mean Aryia?

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:42 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:48 am
Not once did I conflate the "Noble Eightold Path" with MN117's "Right View with Effluents", which is neither noble, nor described as a path.
MN117 appears to be the only Pali Sutta that talks of these two different versions of view, etc:
Dhammanando wrote:
Wed May 06, 2009 3:04 pm
... the Mahacattarisaka Sutta is unique.

I should note that the designations 'mundane' and 'supramundane' for these two right view are actually from the Petakopadesa and Nettipakarana, two early treatises on hermeneutics. At MN. 117 the distinction is expressed with the words 'sāsava' and 'anāsava', "accompanied by cankers" and "free of cankers" respectively.
The parallels to this Sutta do not have this division:
Analyo. "The Mahācattārīsaka-sutta in the Light of its Parallels – Tracing the Beginnings of Abhidharmic Thought", Journal of the Centre for Buddhist Studies, Sri Lanka, 2010, vol. 8 pp. 59–93. (PDF) (reprinted in Madhyama-āgama Studies). However, other suttas in the Saṃyukta-āgama do.
Analayo wrote: The occurrence of an exposition of the supramundane path-factors in
the Saṃyukta-āgama shows that the beginning stages of Abhidharmic
thought left their traces not only in the discourses collections of the
Theravāda tradition. These instances thus offer us an intriguing glimpse
at the beginnings of Abhidharmic thought, prior to the formation of
canonical Abhidharma texts in their own right.

The concern in the Saṃyukta-āgama discourses and in the Mahācattārīsakasutta with expounding the path-factors from a supramundane viewpoint
shows how Abhidharmic analysis has a root in meditation practice and
experience, since the rationale behind these presentation would be to
throw additional light on what constitutes the essence of the Buddha’s
teaching: the culmination of the path in the experience of awakening.
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:13 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:42 pm
MN117 appears to be the only Pali Sutta that talks of these two different versions of view, etc:
This doesn't change the Dhamma therein. It is plainly obvious the dhammas listed in the mundane right view will not lead to Nibbana. This is supported by MN 60, which says the mundane dhammas listed in MN 117 only lead to the three skilful actions. Even Bhikkhu Sujato abandoned Analayo's kooky ideas. Like Analayo, MikeNZ must defend themself from the following censure reserved for strawmen :P :
If any contemplative or brahman might think that this Great Forty Dhamma discourse should be censured & rejected, there are ten legitimate implications of his statement that would form grounds for censuring him here & now. If he censures right view, then he would honor any contemplatives & brahmans who are of wrong view; he would praise them. If he censures right resolve... right speech... right action... right livelihood... right effort... right mindfulness... right concentration... right knowledge... If he censures right release, then he would honor any contemplatives & brahmans who are of wrong release; he would praise them. If any contemplative or brahman might think that this Great Forty Dhamma discourse should be censured & rejected, there are these ten legitimate implications of his statement that would form grounds for censuring him here & now.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:19 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:13 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:42 pm
MN117 appears to be the only Pali Sutta that talks of these two different versions of view, etc:
This doesn't change the Dhamma therein. Even Bhikkhu Sujato abandoned Analyo's kooky ideas.
As Ven Dhammanando notes in the quote I gave above, MN117 is unique in this classification. Whether this is perceived as an issue or not is a different question.

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:21 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:19 pm
As Ven Dhammanando notes in the quote I gave above, MN117 is unique in this classification. Whether this is perceived as an issue or not is a different question.
Its uniqueness is not an issue. Bhikkhu Sujato wisely & correctly conceded this many years ago and abandoned Analayo's kooky heretical crusade. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:26 pm

sunnat wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:17 pm
The Venerable Ledi Sayadaw wrote :

destroy the latency level of personality view. *

"He then becomes a noble one (ariya) in the noble supermundane plane, one to be reborn in successively higher planes of existence."
If personality view is destroyed, who or what is reborn in successively higher planes of existence? :thinking: :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:29 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:21 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:19 pm
As Ven Dhammanando notes in the quote I gave above, MN117 is unique in this classification. Whether this is perceived as an issue or not is a different question.
Its uniqueness is not an issue. Bhikkhu Sujato wisely & correctly conceded this many years ago and abandoned Analayo's kooky heretical crusade. :smile:
Could you provide a reference please?

Here's some other discussion: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/th ... th/2876/13
viewtopic.php?t=14592
viewtopic.php?t=3881
viewtopic.php?t=24070

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by DooDoot » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:40 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:19 pm
Could you provide a reference please?
There was a general topic on SC nominating dodgy suttas and I recall BS didn’t support VB’s nomination of MN 117. Plus he conceded to me personally, when we discussed it verbally, once.

I found it
Sujato wrote:Thanks everyone for their suggestions.

Regarding MN 117 and SN 34, my initial thought is that, while they may indeed have late features, the bulk of the content is pretty normal. Maybe they, or part of them, should be included, but they’re not at the top of my list.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/so ... ts/5795/11
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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