Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

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retrofuturist
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:48 pm

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:33 pm
Do you mean that the householder is stream entrant?
They can be, but it doesn't mean they are.

You are evidently confused. Let me try to clarify - one relates to ordination status (I.e. Not ordained = householder), the other relates to enlightenment status (I.e. Puthujjana = not enlightened, not noble).

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by SarathW » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:51 pm

ok thanks. :D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by chownah » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:58 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:48 pm
Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:33 pm
Do you mean that the householder is stream entrant?
They can be, but it doesn't mean they are.

You are evidently confused. Let me try to clarify - one relates to ordination status (I.e. Not ordained = householder), the other relates to enlightenment status (I.e. Puthujjana = not enlightened, not noble).

Metta,
Paul. :)
puthujjana means not noble (from this post)
puthujjana means not yet achieved stream-entry.(from your previous post)
.....but the lowest of the eight kinds of noble ones IS noble AND as yet has not achieved stream entry.....seems like a contradiction....
chownah

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:47 am

Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:58 am
puthujjana means not noble (from this post)
puthujjana means not yet achieved stream-entry.(from your previous post)
Yes.
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:58 am
.....but the lowest of the eight kinds of noble ones IS noble AND as yet has not achieved stream entry.....seems like a contradiction....
It is indeed a contradiction... which is why I'm wondering why you've added the part I bolded, and where you got that idea from.

Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by sentinel » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:56 am

The path can't be considered as Noble , it is Not a Fruit . The stream entry before sakadagami is still remains stream entry fruit . Obviously the text not making sense .
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:10 am

Greetings sentinel,
sentinel wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:56 am
The path can't be considered as Noble , it is Not a Fruit . The stream entry before sakadagami is still remains stream entry fruit . Obviously the text not making sense .
To you, perhaps, but then, I cannot follow your convoluted and seemingly arbitrary logic so maybe you're seeing something I'm not.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by sentinel » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:22 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:10 am
Greetings sentinel,
sentinel wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:56 am
The path can't be considered as Noble , it is Not a Fruit . The stream entry before sakadagami is still remains stream entry fruit . Obviously the text not making sense .
To you, perhaps, but then, I cannot follow your convoluted and seemingly arbitrary logic so maybe you're seeing something I'm not.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Hi retro ,

Not so . If you are taking the path as something Noble , that would includes first fold of the eight fold path which is mundane right view etc , precepts , wholesome kamma in which ignorant person are practising . Only stream entry has the Noble right view . Therefore , before stream entry one has not seen the dependent origination yet , practising the path should not be regarded as Noble result !
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:48 am

Greetings sentinel,

Not once did I conflate the "Noble Eightold Path" with MN117's "Right View with Effluents", which is neither noble, nor described as a path.

I would advise you not to do so either.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by chownah » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:49 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:47 am
Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:58 am
puthujjana means not noble (from this post)
puthujjana means not yet achieved stream-entry.(from your previous post)
Yes.
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:58 am
.....but the lowest of the eight kinds of noble ones IS noble AND as yet has not achieved stream entry.....seems like a contradiction....
It is indeed a contradiction... which is why I'm wondering why you've added the part I bolded, and where you got that idea from.

Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)
It is my understanding that the lowest (if one wants to view heirarchically) of the eight kinds of nobles has not yet achieved stream entry:
And furthermore, just as the ocean is the abode of such mighty beings as these: whales, whale-eaters, & whale-eater-eaters; asuras, nāgas, & gandhabbas, and there are in the ocean beings one hundred leagues long, two hundred... three hundred... four hundred... five hundred leagues long; in the same way, this Dhamma & Vinaya is the abode of such mighty beings as these: stream-winners & those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry; once-returners & those practicing to realize the fruit of once-returning; non-returners & those practicing to realize the fruit of non-returning; arahants & those practicing for arahantship.
This is from ud5.5......."stream-winners & those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry".....it seems that those practicing to realize the fruit of stream entry have not yet achieved stream entry and yet they are noble.
chownah
Edit:.....and at access to insight an10.92 thanissaro's notes say"The four pairs are (1) the person on the path to stream-entry, the person experiencing the fruit of stream-entry; ".....where the person on the path to stream entry has not achieved stream entry but is considered to be noble.
chownah

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by sentinel » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:06 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:48 am
....

Metta,
Paul. :)
The question is , a person whom is aiming for stream entry does not necessarily understand the dhamma vinaya or dependent origination correctly , for example , that person could be practising breathing meditation , where s/he analyzing the breath thus breaking it into minute particles as anicca anatta and taken it for true path of seeing dependent origination yet that person is heading to the wrong direction .
How then this person is consider Noble ?
:shrug:

Or probably you would want to explain what is the meaning of Noble here ? Ignorant person practising Noble path and an ariya is entirely different .
Last edited by sentinel on Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by sunnat » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:20 am

By practicing according to the noble eight fold path one gets to a point where one sees the path and becomes ennobled.

The Venerable Ledi Sayadaw wrote :

Personality view is just another name for self view (atta￾diṭṭhi) in which the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind are regarded as “I” and “mine.” This view is held tenaciously by all ordinary people (puthujjana). When we say that the sense organs are tenaciously viewed as “I” and “mine,” this means that whenever a visible object is seen, people firmly and tenaciously believe “I see it, I see it.” The same is true of the other senses and their objects (with mind as the sixth). This is how personality view is established on the foundation of the six internal bases.

Let us take the example of a being who in past lives has made many stupid mistakes so that in his successive lives all these old evil kammas bom of personality view are attached to and always accompany his life continuity.

Proceeding in such a way, this being will in future existences also make foolish mistakes, thus making new evil kamma arising from personality view. So when personality view is extinguished, the results of past evil kamma leading to subhuman birth cannot arise, nor can more evil kamma be made. For this reason there is no longer any possibility of wandering-on in the deprived states; for such a person there are no more rebirths in the hells, the animal world, the ghost realm, and the demons—these are all extinguished. A person like this attains to his first experience of Nibbāna, called Nibbāna-with-the-grasped-at-groups-remaining (sa￾upadisesa Nibbāna), meaning that for him the three rounds connected with the wandering-on in the states of deprivation are utterly extinct. He then becomes a noble one (ariya) in the noble supermundane plane, one to be reborn in successively higher planes of existence."

Right speech, action, and livelihood, which are the constituents of the morality group, are the factors to use forthe destruction of the third level of personality view, the transgressive level, when evil unwholesome kamma, fourfold of speech and threefold of bodily action, is, committed.

Right effort, mindfulness, and concentration, the factors of the concentration group, are the factors to use for the destruction of the second level of personality view, the obsessive level, when the threefold evil unwholesome kamma of the mind is made.

Right view and right intention, comprising the wisdom group, are the factors to use for the destruction of the first level of personality view, the latency level, which has always existed in the life-continuities of beings in the beginningless round of rebirths.

Whoever has been successful in establishing purity of moral conduct and purity of mind should then try to establish the wisdom group of right view and right intention so as to destroy the latency level of personality view. To have established these two path factors means the establishment in due order of the five purities of wisdom, which are:
purity of view, purity of overcoming doubt,
purity by knowledge and vision of what is and what is not the path,
purity by knowledge and vision of the practice-path,
purity by supermundane knowledge and vision.

If no steps are taken for the control of the mind, then unwholesomeness spreads from the obsessive level to the third level called the transgressive level (vitikkama￾bhūmi), the stage where unwholesome verbal or bodily kamma is made. These are, respectively, the fourfold verbal action (false speech, tale-bearing, harsh talk, and useless chatter), and the threefold bodily action (killing living creatures, taking what is not given, wrong conduct in sexual pleasures).

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:28 am

Greetings chownah,
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:49 am
It is my understanding that the lowest (if one wants to view heirarchically) of the eight kinds of nobles has not yet achieved stream entry...
To use the schema you raise, we could speak of stream entrants and stream winners. To my understanding they are both noble.

Stream-entrants have access to "right view without effluents", and that there is the forerunner of the path that they follow to stream-winning and beyond.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:29 am

Greetings sentinel,
sentinel wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:06 am
How then this person is consider Noble ?
:shrug:
They're not. Who said they were?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by sentinel » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:17 am

Why path practitioners are not consider Noble ?
Simply because before attaining sotapanna , it is not sainthood , not ariya , not Noble !
But , praiseworthy certainly .
What are the fetters that already destroyed before sotapanna ? None .
Of course , if blindly follow the texts one will adhere without thorough investigation .
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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Post by justindesilva » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:09 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:29 am
Greetings sentinel,
sentinel wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:06 am
How then this person is consider Noble ?
:shrug:
They're not. Who said they were?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
I read in a web of Mahamwnawa, that a prutagjana (putajjana) is one who is prone to do terrible things which leads him to be born in hell or naraka by not understanding the word of the Buddha. A noble ( Aarya) is one who starts following arya ashtanga marga.
The five precepts tally with the first five steps of the Noble eight fold path.

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