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Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:43 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Volo,
Volo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:35 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:49 pm
The point isn't that it's a different path, it's that Right View is the forerunner of the path (i.e. stream-entry) and it's the Noble Eightfold Path that one follows once they are a sekha (i.e. a noble trainee). Until then, how can the path be followed when its forerunner is absent?
The question was about lay people and N8P. Not about whether only a noble individual can follow N8P.
I suggest you read the full OP, and not just the title.

Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)

Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:45 am
by Srilankaputra
Suppose there was a warrior who knew lots of fancy archery tricks. It is only with these three factors that he becomes worthy of a king, fit to serve a king, and is considered a factor of kingship. What three? He’s a long-distance shooter, a marksman, and one who shatters large objects.

Just as a warrior is a long-distance shooter, a noble disciple has right immersion. A noble disciple with right immersion truly sees any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: *all* form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ They truly see any kind of feeling … perception … choices … consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near, *all* consciousness—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’

Just as a warrior is a marksman, a noble disciple has right view. A noble disciple with right view truly understands: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.

Just as a warrior shatters large objects, a noble disciple has right freedom. A noble disciple with right freedom shatters the great mass of ignorance.”
https://suttacentral.net/an4.196/en/sujato

This is how i see it;
Our arrow is bent. But we have to keep on shooting. We retrieve the arrow straiten it(as able) and shoot again and again.

Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:01 am
by Volo
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:40 am
The question is about a "householder". A "householder" is generally described as follows:
“Sir, we live at home with our children, using sandalwood imported from Kāsi, wearing garlands, perfumes and makeup, and accepting gold and money.
So, engagement in sexual intercourse is not a part of housholder's definition.

Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:08 am
by Volo
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:43 am
Greetings Volo,
Volo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:35 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:49 pm
The point isn't that it's a different path, it's that Right View is the forerunner of the path (i.e. stream-entry) and it's the Noble Eightfold Path that one follows once they are a sekha (i.e. a noble trainee). Until then, how can the path be followed when its forerunner is absent?
The question was about lay people and N8P. Not about whether only a noble individual can follow N8P.
I suggest you read the full OP, and not just the title.

Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)
The OP seems to include two questions: about householders and 8NP and in the end it switches to putthujjana and 8NP. I replied to the first question, since it was also in the tilte. Your reply to my post was as if I replied to the second one.

Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:43 am
by justindesilva
SarathW wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:23 am
it's that Right View is the forerunner of the path
Agree but there are two type of Right views.
One followed by Ariya and another followed by household (Putujana).
The difference between putujjana and ariya is a concern. A putujjana is a worldling who experience life ordinarily without an analysis of ones day to day deeds and thoughts. The moment one understands or have a glimpse of chaturaraya satya or the four noble truths he escapes from being a putujjana. Faith in budda darma and sangha makes one enter in to right view. The first step of noble 8FP being right understanding been right vision (samma ditthi) leaps in to forming views and this effort ( virya) is a vidassana (analysis).
It is with this analysis in existence a lay sravaka selects a way of life ( samma ajiva) so that this lay desciple can stick to the expected virtues ( sila) with sharing of resources ( dana) while analysing with vidassana and sati ( concentrating) on its own deeds ( as yoniso manasikara).
Hence we must realise that any ordinary person
( putujjana) by understanding the four noble truths can enter in to the arya ashtanga margaya. But the end of the arya ashtanga margaya ( with nekkamma) is beyond the stage of sovan who can not be a lay desciple.
Therefore the one who enters the stream from being a putujjana becomes a stream entrant (sravaka) who then starts following the Noble eight fold path to rise up.

Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:59 am
by DooDoot
Volo wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:01 am
So, engagement in sexual intercourse is not a part of housholder's definition.
Possibly. However, it still sounds like indulgence in sensual pleasures, which would possibly mean the 2nd and 7th factors of the Noble Path are not fully practised.
And what is right thought?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo?

It is the thought of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness.
Yo kho, bhikkhave, nekkhammasaṅkappo, abyāpādasaṅkappo, avihiṃsāsaṅkappo—

And what is right mindfulness?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammāsati?

It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ;

Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:54 am
by SarathW
I meant in this op, the household or Puthujana as a person who has gone for three refuges.

Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:58 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:54 am
I meant in this op, the household or Puthujana as a person who has gone for three refuges.
A householder may be a puthujjana or a sekha.
A bhikkhu may be a puthujjana, sekha or arahant.

There's a topic about "lay-arahants" somewhere, but for now I'll leave them out, as its tangential to my main point that "householder" and "puthujjana" are not synonyms.

Metta,
Paul. :)

Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:01 am
by SarathW
What is the Pali word for householder?

Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:05 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:01 am
What is the Pali word for householder?
There may be multiple, but gihin is one.

Metta,
Paul. :)

Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:07 am
by SarathW
Ok.
Sri Lankans use the word "Gihi" to refers to norma people living in houses but not monks (pavidi).
So what is the difference between Putujana and household?

Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:17 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:07 am
So what is the difference between Putujana and household?
Householder is someone who is not ordained.

A puthujjana is someone who has yet to achieve stream-entry.

Metta,
Paul. :)

Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:24 am
by seeker242
SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:55 am
I like to know your opinion on this.
Something that's not worthy of even paying 2 seconds of attention to. :meditate:

Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:55 pm
by chownah
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:17 am
Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:07 am
So what is the difference between Putujana and household?
Householder is someone who is not ordained.

A puthujjana is someone who has yet to achieve stream-entry.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Is the lowest (if viewing heirarchically) of the eight noble persons called puthujjana even though they are also considered to be noble?
chownah

Re: Noble Eightfold Path is only for monks not for the household!!

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:33 pm
by SarathW
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:17 am
Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:07 am
So what is the difference between Putujana and household?
Householder is someone who is not ordained.

A puthujjana is someone who has yet to achieve stream-entry.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Do you mean that the householder is stream entrant?