thinking born of contact

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auto
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thinking born of contact

Post by auto » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:53 pm

https://suttacentral.net/ds2.1.1/en/caf_rhysdavids
Katamā tasmiṃ samaye cetanā hoti? Yā tasmiṃ samaye tajjāmanoviññāṇadhātusamphassajā cetanā sañcetanā cetayitattaṃ —ayaṃ tasmiṃ samaye cetanā hoti.

What on that occasion is thinking?

The thinking, the cogitating, the reflection, which is born of contact with the appropriate element of representative intellection—this is the thinking that there then is.
is thinking, what is born of contact, a being?

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Nicolas
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Re: thinking born of contact

Post by Nicolas » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:27 pm

Thinking is born of contact. Thinking is not a being. Thinking is just thinking.
"Born" here doesn't refer to the birth of a being, but just means "deriving or resulting from".

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Pondera
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Re: thinking born of contact

Post by Pondera » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:49 am

No. Here “representative intellection” refers to any form of elemental discernment. This includes concepts such as “contact” with the past - ie. a memory.

A memory is not a being. It is an object of the mind faculty.

Anything you can discern in your mind; any object of meditation; red, blue, yellow, white, earth, water, fire, wind, space, consciousness - as long as you can intuitively grasp these elements you are in mental contact with said “representative intellection”.

It is just a concept. But the meaning of “concept” as a “mind object” is a subtle one; one requiring discernment.
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

form
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Re: thinking born of contact

Post by form » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:19 am

Nibanna has no contact and no thinking?

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Pondera
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Re: thinking born of contact

Post by Pondera » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:25 am

Contact ceases when feeling and perception cease. If you equate thinking with awareness, then - no; thinking doesn’t stop in Nibbana.

Although this is contradictory. Suttas say, “thinking is not good for me. What if I were to enter cessation, etc .....”
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

form
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Re: thinking born of contact

Post by form » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:12 am

Pondera wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:25 am
Contact ceases when feeling and perception cease. If you equate thinking with awareness, then - no; thinking doesn’t stop in Nibbana.

Although this is contradictory. Suttas say, “thinking is not good for me. What if I were to enter cessation, etc .....”
How do u explain when volitional formations cease, consciousness cease? Doesn't it imply there is no consciousness?

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: thinking born of contact

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:23 am

auto wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:53 pm
...
is thinking, what is born of contact, a being?



Many Burmese sayadaws are quite confortable holding simultaneously both three-life model and one-life model of DO. For both explanations, being is not involved.


.
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  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

auto
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Re: thinking born of contact

Post by auto » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:09 pm

interesting is that cetana here is translated as thinking. I wonder if that thinking is based on intent?
https://suttacentral.net/ds2.1.1/en/caf_rhysdavids
cetanā - thinking
sañcetanā - cogitating
cetayitattaṃ - reflection
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/c/cetanā
cetanāPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Cetanā,[f.abstr.fr.cet,see cinteti] state of ceto in action,thinking as active thought,intention,purpose,will.
cetana as volition is more like a secondary motive in that word. Cetana rather is thinking what is active. If i go with that then i might be thinking that cetana is thinking.

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/c/ceto
I. Ceto in its relation to similar terms:(a) with kāya & vācā:kāyena vācāya cetasā (with hand,speech & heart)...….
II. Cetaso (Gen.) (a) heart.c° upakkilesa (stain of h.) D.III,49,101; S.V,93.līnatta (attachment) S.V,64.appasāda (unfaith) S.I,179; ekodibhāva (singleness) D.III,78; S.IV,236 (see 2nd jhāna); āvaraṇāni (hindrances) S 66.-- vimokkha (redemption) S.I,159.santi (tranquillity) ..........

hmm
Katamaṃ tasmiṃ samaye cittaṃ hoti? Yaṃ tasmiṃ samaye cittaṃ mano mānasaṃ hadayaṃ paṇḍaraṃ mano manāyatanaṃ manindriyaṃ viññāṇaṃ viññāṇakkhandho tajjāmanoviññāṇadhātu—idaṃ tasmiṃ samaye cittaṃ hoti.

What on that occasion is thought?

The thought which on that occasion is ideation, mind, heart, that which is clear, ideation as the sphere of mind, the faculty of mind, intellection, the skandha of intellection, the appropriate element of representative intellection—this is the thought that there then is.

auto
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Re: thinking born of contact

Post by auto » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:23 pm

dhammas are the beings. The satta's what borns, rises(satta means actually something else actually and different context). What has come to be - yathabhutam

https://suttacentral.net/ds2.1.1/en/caf_rhysdavids
Now these—or whatever other incorporeal, causally induced states there are on that occasion—these are states that are good.
Ye vā pana tasmiṃ samaye aññepi atthi paṭiccasamuppannā arūpino dhammā—ime dhammā kusalā.
and the title is Kāmāvacarakusala. I think this is about the kama bhava.


the highlighted quote says arūpin. incorporeal. So i wonder if the kama, rupa and arupa differ only in body or the absence of it and the mean, as of it is written in absolute and in reality there is density. Dense body can act as a container.

i wonder if thinking is being born out of contact with manovinnana dhatu. hehe

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: thinking born of contact

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:38 pm

auto wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:23 pm
dhammas are the beings. The satta's what borns, rises. What has come to be - yathabhutam
...
...

dhammas, beings and satta somehow got equated, in the above sentence.



.
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  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

auto
Posts: 1094
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: thinking born of contact

Post by auto » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:55 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:38 pm
auto wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:23 pm
dhammas are the beings. The satta's what borns, rises. What has come to be - yathabhutam
...
...

dhammas, beings and satta somehow got equated, in the above sentence.



.
read more into what you read not like you read regular books.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: thinking born of contact

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:28 pm

auto wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:55 pm
...
...
read more into what you read not like you read regular books.
Thanks for your kind guidance :smile:
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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