Causes for gratitude

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
santa100
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Re: Causes for gratitude

Post by santa100 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:17 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:11 am
santa100 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:13 am
chownah wrote:3. "You're fully aware of the kamma of telling an explicit intentional lie right?"
A: The exact working out of kamma is unknowable....so I am not fully aware of the kamma of telling an explicit intentional lie.....and I am not interested in hearing anything you have to say on the subject.
This is what you said:
chownah wrote:an2.32 does not mention gratitude at all.
and I gave you the specific link to AN 2.32 with that gigantic word "Gratitude" right at the top.
The link which I read and used in formulating my comment that generosity did not appear in an2.32 was provided by you and is this:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Notice that the www name calls it an2.31.......but after opening the link you can see in the title that it is an2.31-32. If you examine the text you will see that at the beginning of the second paragraph after the introduction there is a numerical indicator which is "{II,iv,2}". I believe this is to show that this following paragraph is from an2.32 while the preceding paragraph is from an2.31. I think that two suttas have been lumped into one presentation at this link.

If my analysis is correct then we do not know the title of an2.32 and we do not know if the entire text of an2.32 is presented but it seems quite clear that the text presented as being an2.32 does not contain the word "generosity".

chownah
I did give you the link to AN 2.32 with that humongous title saying "Gratitude" right at the top because you yourself said:
chownah wrote:an2.32 does not mention gratitude at all.
which is absolutely a false statement. And then all of a sudden now you switch topic from "gratitude" to "generosity". Man, you're all over the place, WTF?

chownah
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Causes for gratitude

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:55 am

Sorry, my mistake. I meant to say:
If my analysis is correct then we do not know the title of an2.32 and we do not know if the entire text of an2.32 is presented but it seems quite clear that the text presented as being an2.32 does not contain the word "gratitude".
I believe that an2.32 does not contain the word "gratitude":
http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts ... od.pts.htm
Sutta 32
[32.1][than][olds] Monks, one can never repay two persons,
I declare.
What two?

Mother and father.

Even if one should carry about
his mother on one shoulder
and his father on the other,[60]
and so doing should live a hundred years,
attain a hundred years;
and if he should support them,[61]
anointing them with unguents,
kneading, bathing and rubbing their limbs,
and they meanwhile
should even void their excre- [57] ments upon him,
— even so could he not repay his parents.
Moreover, monks,
if he should establish his parents
in supreme authority,
in the absolute rule
over this mighty earth
abounding in the seven treasures,
— not even thus
could he repay his parents.
What is the cause of that?

Monks, parents do much for their children:
they bring them up,
they nourish them,
they introduce them[62] to this world.

Moreover, monks,
whoso incites his unbelieving parents,
settles and establishes them
in the faith;
whoso incites his immoral parents,
settles and establishes them
in morality;
whoso incites his stingy parents,
settles and establishes them
in liberality;
whoso incites his foolish parents,
settles and establishes them
in wisdom,
— such an one,
just by so doing,
does repay,
does more than repay
what is due to his parents.'



santa100
Posts: 3708
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Causes for gratitude

Post by santa100 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:06 am

chownah wrote:I believe that an2.32 does not contain the word "gratitude"
Blatantly wrong!
AN 2.32 - Ven. Thanissaro wrote: .
32. Kataññu: Gratitude

“Monks, I will teach you the level of a person of no integrity and the level of a person of integrity. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak.”

“As you say, lord,” the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, “Now what is the level of a person of no integrity? A person of no integrity is ungrateful & unthankful. This ingratitude, this lack of thankfulness, is advocated by rude people. It is entirely on the level of people of no integrity. A person of integrity is grateful & thankful. This gratitude, this thankfulness, is advocated by civil people. It is entirely on the level of people of integrity.”

“I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two? Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, and were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate & urinate right there [on your shoulders], you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. If you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. Why is that? Mother & father do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them, they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in conviction; rouses his unvirtuous mother & father, settles & establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his foolish mother & father, settles & establishes them in discernment: To this extent one pays & repays one’s mother & father.”
AN 2.32/33 - Ven. Bodhi wrote:“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the plane of the bad person and the plane of the good person. Listen and attend closely. I will speak.”

“Yes, Bhante,” those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“And what is the plane of the bad person? A bad person is ungrateful and unthankful. For ingratitude and unthankfulness are extolled by the bad. Ingratitude and unthankfulness belong entirely to the plane of the bad person.

“And what is the plane of the good person? A good person is grateful and thankful. For gratitude and thankfulness are extolled by the good. Gratitude and thankfulness belong entirely to the plane of the good person.”


33 (2)

“Bhikkhus, there are two persons that cannot easily be repaid. What two? One’s mother and father.

“Even if one should carry about one’s mother on one shoulder [62] and one’s father on the other, and [while doing so] should have a life span of a hundred years, live for a hundred years; and if one should attend to them by anointing them with balms, by massaging, bathing, and rubbing their limbs, and they even void their urine and excrement there, one still would not have done enough for one’s parents, nor would one have repaid them. Even if one were to establish one’s parents as the supreme lords and rulers over this great earth abounding in the seven treasures, one still would not have done enough for one’s parents, nor would one have repaid them. For what reason? Parents are of great help to their children; they bring them up, feed them, and show them the world.

“But, bhikkhus, if, when one’s parents lack faith, one encourages, settles, and establishes them in faith; if, when one’s parents are immoral, one encourages, settles, and establishes them in virtuous behavior; if, when one’s parents are miserly, one encourages, settles, and establishes them in generosity; if, when one’s parents are unwise, one encourages, settles, and establishes them in wisdom: in such a way, one has done enough for one’s parents, repaid them, and done more than enough for them.”252

chownah
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Re: Causes for gratitude

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:38 am

It seems that different sources are using different numbering systems for these suttas.
chownah

chownah
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Re: Causes for gratitude

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:41 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:06 am
chownah wrote:I believe that an2.32 does not contain the word "gratitude"
Blatantly wrong!
Actually, what I said is exactly right....I said that I believe that an2.32 does not contain the word "gratitude and that is actually exactly right....indeed I do believe that.....although now that I see how different people number these suttas differently I am starting to believe that perhaps I am wrong although if I am wrong than so is the link which I brought which clearly shows an2.32 as not containing the word "gratitude".

I'm wondering of the significance of your posting.....what does it mean?....what is the point. It is clear that with respect to the text on repaying your parents the word "gratitude" is not present but "repay" is. It is clear that the text on persons of integrity the word "gratitude" is present. That is clear. The proper numbering scheme for these texts is not so clear and seems to vary from place to place.
chownah
Last edited by chownah on Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

santa100
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Re: Causes for gratitude

Post by santa100 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:42 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:41 am
santa100 wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:06 am
chownah wrote:I believe that an2.32 does not contain the word "gratitude"
Blatantly wrong!
Actually, what I said is exactly right....I said that I believe that an2.32 does not contain the word "gratitude and that is actually exactly right....indeed I do believe that.
chownah
Blatantly wrong again. I'll continue to post these suttas again and again and again until you see it.
AN 2.32 - Ven. Thanissaro wrote: .
32. Kataññu: Gratitude

“Monks, I will teach you the level of a person of no integrity and the level of a person of integrity. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak.”

“As you say, lord,” the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, “Now what is the level of a person of no integrity? A person of no integrity is ungrateful & unthankful. This ingratitude, this lack of thankfulness, is advocated by rude people. It is entirely on the level of people of no integrity. A person of integrity is grateful & thankful. This gratitude, this thankfulness, is advocated by civil people. It is entirely on the level of people of integrity.”

“I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two? Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, and were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate & urinate right there [on your shoulders], you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. If you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. Why is that? Mother & father do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them, they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in conviction; rouses his unvirtuous mother & father, settles & establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his foolish mother & father, settles & establishes them in discernment: To this extent one pays & repays one’s mother & father.”
AN 2.32/33 - Ven. Bodhi wrote:“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the plane of the bad person and the plane of the good person. Listen and attend closely. I will speak.”

“Yes, Bhante,” those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“And what is the plane of the bad person? A bad person is ungrateful and unthankful. For ingratitude and unthankfulness are extolled by the bad. Ingratitude and unthankfulness belong entirely to the plane of the bad person.

“And what is the plane of the good person? A good person is grateful and thankful. For gratitude and thankfulness are extolled by the good. Gratitude and thankfulness belong entirely to the plane of the good person.”


33 (2)

“Bhikkhus, there are two persons that cannot easily be repaid. What two? One’s mother and father.

“Even if one should carry about one’s mother on one shoulder [62] and one’s father on the other, and [while doing so] should have a life span of a hundred years, live for a hundred years; and if one should attend to them by anointing them with balms, by massaging, bathing, and rubbing their limbs, and they even void their urine and excrement there, one still would not have done enough for one’s parents, nor would one have repaid them. Even if one were to establish one’s parents as the supreme lords and rulers over this great earth abounding in the seven treasures, one still would not have done enough for one’s parents, nor would one have repaid them. For what reason? Parents are of great help to their children; they bring them up, feed them, and show them the world.

“But, bhikkhus, if, when one’s parents lack faith, one encourages, settles, and establishes them in faith; if, when one’s parents are immoral, one encourages, settles, and establishes them in virtuous behavior; if, when one’s parents are miserly, one encourages, settles, and establishes them in generosity; if, when one’s parents are unwise, one encourages, settles, and establishes them in wisdom: in such a way, one has done enough for one’s parents, repaid them, and done more than enough for them.”252

chownah
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Re: Causes for gratitude

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:21 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:55 am
I believe that an2.32 does not contain the word "gratitude":
http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts ... od.pts.htm
Sutta 32
[32.1][than][olds] Monks, one can never repay two persons,
I declare.
What two?

Mother and father.

Even if one should carry about
his mother on one shoulder
and his father on the other,[60]
and so doing should live a hundred years,
attain a hundred years;
and if he should support them,[61]
anointing them with unguents,
kneading, bathing and rubbing their limbs,
and they meanwhile
should even void their excre- [57] ments upon him,
— even so could he not repay his parents.
Moreover, monks,
if he should establish his parents
in supreme authority,
in the absolute rule
over this mighty earth
abounding in the seven treasures,
— not even thus
could he repay his parents.
What is the cause of that?

Monks, parents do much for their children:
they bring them up,
they nourish them,
they introduce them[62] to this world.

Moreover, monks,
whoso incites his unbelieving parents,
settles and establishes them
in the faith;
whoso incites his immoral parents,
settles and establishes them
in morality;
whoso incites his stingy parents,
settles and establishes them
in liberality;
whoso incites his foolish parents,
settles and establishes them
in wisdom,
— such an one,
just by so doing,
does repay,
does more than repay
what is due to his parents.'



chownah
Posts: 8177
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Causes for gratitude

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:31 am

An example of veneration from the suttas:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
A small excerpt:
"He from whom a person learns the Dhamma should be venerated, as the devas venerate Inda, their Lord. [1] He, (a teacher) of great learning, thus venerated, will explain the Dhamma, being well-disposed towards one. Having paid attention and considered it, a wise man, practicing according to Dhamma, becomes learned, intelligent and accomplished by associating himself diligently with such a teacher.
I think that it would be natural for someone to express gratitude towards someone who had taught them the dhamma.....and here it talks about venerating them....I think it is likely that this veneration is at least partly an expression of gratitude if not entirely an expression of gratitude depending on the attitude of the student.

It might be good to find out how the devas venerate Inda and try to see if that is an expression of gratitude too.
chownah

chownah
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Re: Causes for gratitude

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:44 am

Can devotion in part or in full be considered an expression of gratitude?
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... otion.html
Devotion in Buddhism
by
Nyanaponika Thera

A couple of excerpts:
The Buddha repeatedly discouraged any excessive veneration paid to him personally. He knew that an excess of purely emotional devotion can obstruct or disturb the development of a balanced character, and thus may become a serious obstacle to progress on the path to deliverance. The history of religion has since proved him right, as illustrated by the extravagancies of emotional mysticism in East and West.
and
We may now ask: Is it not quite natural that feelings of love, gratitude, reverence and devotion seek expression through the entire personality, through acts of body and speech as well as through our thoughts and unexpressed sentiments? Will one, for instance, hide one's feelings towards parents and other loved ones? Will one not rather express them by loving words and deeds? Will one not cherish their memory in suitable ways, as for instance, by preserving their pictures in one's home, by placing flowers on their graves, by recalling their noble qualities? In such a way, one who has become critical of the devotional aspects of religion may seek to understand the outward acts of homage customary in Buddhist lands when, with reverential gesture, flowers and incense are placed before a Buddha image and devotional texts are recited not as prayers but as meditation. Provided that such practice does not deteriorate into a thoughtless routine, a follower of the Dhamma will derive benefit if he takes up some form of a devotional practice, adapting it to his personal temperament and to the social customs of his environment. Buddhism however, does not in the least impose upon its followers a demand to observe any outward form of devotion or worship. This is entirely left to the choice of individuals whose emotional, devotional and intellectual needs are bound to differ greatly. No Buddhist should feel himself forced into an iron-cast mould, be it of a devotional or a rationalistic shape. As a follower of the middle way, he should, however, also avoid one-sided judgment of others, and try to appreciate that their individual needs and preferences may differ from his own.
There is some really good stuff elsewhere in this article and people might want to take a look.
chownah

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Sam Vara
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Re: Causes for gratitude

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:26 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:11 am
I want to express my gratitude to you for having gone to suttacentral and searched for the pali words translated as being relevant to gratitude and I want you to know that I appreciate the time and effort it took to do that.

Having said that, I would probably feel gratitude towards someone who really wants to examine the suttas looking for connections between right view and gratitude if they went out and brought a bunch of those sutta references here in english so that we can examine and discuss them. I would feel gratitude towards them because I would appreciate the chance to dispell my ignorance.

chownah
You're welcome. :anjali:

I will leave further opportunities for incurring gratitude to others, as the SC search function makes it easy to view suttas containing the relevant terms in parallel English and Pali.

chownah
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Re: Causes for gratitude

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:45 am

This is from a sutta:
"To be respectful,[13] humble, contented and grateful; and to listen to the Dhamma on due occasions[14] — this is the greatest blessing."
chownah

santa100
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Re: Causes for gratitude

Post by santa100 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:26 pm

chownah wrote: Actually, what I said is exactly right....I said that I believe that an2.32 does not contain the word "gratitude and that is actually exactly right....indeed I do believe that.
chownah
AN 2.32 - Ven. Thanissaro wrote: .
32. Kataññu: Gratitude

“Monks, I will teach you the level of a person of no integrity and the level of a person of integrity. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak.”

“As you say, lord,” the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, “Now what is the level of a person of no integrity? A person of no integrity is ungrateful & unthankful. This ingratitude, this lack of thankfulness, is advocated by rude people. It is entirely on the level of people of no integrity. A person of integrity is grateful & thankful. This gratitude, this thankfulness, is advocated by civil people. It is entirely on the level of people of integrity.”

“I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two? Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, and were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate & urinate right there [on your shoulders], you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. If you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. Why is that? Mother & father do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them, they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in conviction; rouses his unvirtuous mother & father, settles & establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his foolish mother & father, settles & establishes them in discernment: To this extent one pays & repays one’s mother & father.”
AN 2.32/33 - Ven. Bodhi wrote:“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the plane of the bad person and the plane of the good person. Listen and attend closely. I will speak.”

“Yes, Bhante,” those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“And what is the plane of the bad person? A bad person is ungrateful and unthankful. For ingratitude and unthankfulness are extolled by the bad. Ingratitude and unthankfulness belong entirely to the plane of the bad person.

“And what is the plane of the good person? A good person is grateful and thankful. For gratitude and thankfulness are extolled by the good. Gratitude and thankfulness belong entirely to the plane of the good person.”


33 (2)

“Bhikkhus, there are two persons that cannot easily be repaid. What two? One’s mother and father.

“Even if one should carry about one’s mother on one shoulder [62] and one’s father on the other, and [while doing so] should have a life span of a hundred years, live for a hundred years; and if one should attend to them by anointing them with balms, by massaging, bathing, and rubbing their limbs, and they even void their urine and excrement there, one still would not have done enough for one’s parents, nor would one have repaid them. Even if one were to establish one’s parents as the supreme lords and rulers over this great earth abounding in the seven treasures, one still would not have done enough for one’s parents, nor would one have repaid them. For what reason? Parents are of great help to their children; they bring them up, feed them, and show them the world.

“But, bhikkhus, if, when one’s parents lack faith, one encourages, settles, and establishes them in faith; if, when one’s parents are immoral, one encourages, settles, and establishes them in virtuous behavior; if, when one’s parents are miserly, one encourages, settles, and establishes them in generosity; if, when one’s parents are unwise, one encourages, settles, and establishes them in wisdom: in such a way, one has done enough for one’s parents, repaid them, and done more than enough for them.”252

chownah
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Re: Causes for gratitude

Post by chownah » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:53 am

Thank you. I am grateful to you for pointing out that bodhi shows an2.32 and an2.33 differently than thanissaro. I appreciate seeing one post which so clearly shows that different people number these suttas differently.
Thanks again,
chownah

chownah
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Re: Causes for gratitude

Post by chownah » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:58 am

Everyone,
I'm wondering if generosity has gratitude as its cause.....any thoughts on this?
My immediate thought is that if one has gratitude then a gift might be offered out of generosity if gratitude does indeed stimulate generosity.

I'm still trying to get at the idea of suffering leading to gratitude and right view leading to gratitude which is what was originally sought in this thread.
chownah

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Re: Causes for gratitude

Post by Bundokji » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:31 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:58 am
Everyone,
I'm wondering if generosity has gratitude as its cause.....any thoughts on this?
My immediate thought is that if one has gratitude then a gift might be offered out of generosity if gratitude does indeed stimulate generosity.

I'm still trying to get at the idea of suffering leading to gratitude and right view leading to gratitude which is what was originally sought in this thread.
chownah
I would not reduce it only to generosity, but i think there is indeed an interrelationship between generosity and gratitude. The economist Adam Smith suggested that one way to encourage generosity in the rich is to give them status and honor. Our obsession with "coarse power" might make it appear as if it is "one way traffic" where the well off have the obligation to contribute to society and overlooking the "soft power" those at the receiving end possess.

I think another cause for the sense of entitlement and lack of gratitude is fixation based on ignorance:

1- Ignoring the interchangeable relationship between the good and the bad (impermanence" which results in judging events by their immediate results rather than the long term well-being of human beings
2- Reducing what is good to feelings of pleasure and what is bad to feeling of stress or pain.

Through being aware, one can discern that we have the tendency to jump into unwarranted conclusions about what is good and what is bad which makes us selective (feeling entitled). One might think, through his fixation, that having a woman he is infatuated with will bring him happiness, but down the road, he might find that it was a cause of misery. On the contrary, one might have an experience where the immediate results are difficult, but could be a turning point towards long term well-being.

In my opinion, non selectivity helps one to see things as they are and vice versa. This is why monks are not encouraged to be selective when they go for alms, and even if they want to be selective, they might choose to go against the grain for their own benefit and the benefits of those who give. The example of Ven. Maha Kassapa comes to mind here.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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