Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

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seeker242
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Re: Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

Post by seeker242 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:51 pm

No single English word, regardless of what it is, is a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha". That's why you learn the concept the word is trying to convey. Once that is learned, it's doesn't matter which particular english word is used, every translation is accurate because they all convey the same concept.

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Re: Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

Post by sunnat » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:57 pm

The Tip of the Fingernail
Nakhasikhā Sutta (SN 13:1)

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then the Blessed One, picking up a little bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monks, “What do you think, monks? Which is greater: the little bit of dust I have picked up with the tip of my fingernail, or the great earth?”

“The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It’s not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth—this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail—when compared with the great earth.”

“In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through (to stream-entry), the suffering & stress totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most seven remaining lifetimes is next to nothing: It’s not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That’s how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That’s how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye.”

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Re: Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:22 am

Dukkha includes the suffering and the dissatisfaction. Dukkha is three-part: 1. the suffering (physical and mental); 2. the dissatisfaction due to changes (when the pleasant ends, including life in a pleasant world); 3. the dissatisfaction due to conditionality (samsara).
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

form
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Re: Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

Post by form » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:42 am

Seems like everyone here know what is Dukka. :mrgreen:

SarathW
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Re: Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:05 am

Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:22 am
Dukkha includes the suffering and the dissatisfaction. Dukkha is three-part: 1. the suffering (physical and mental); 2. the dissatisfaction due to changes (when the pleasant ends, including life in a pleasant world); 3. the dissatisfaction due to conditionality (samsara).
Good point.
For instance the objects are subject to change.
We can't say let that be or not let that be.
Inability control is the Dukkha I suppose.

For instance:
1)Dukkha Dukkha is mental and physical suffering
2)Viparinama Dukkha is the change in mental, physical and objects. So objects do not suffer but they are subject to change and unable to control.
3)Sankhara Dukkha is mental. (the reason is even if you are the Brhama or Deva you suffer from this)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:08 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:05 am
For instance:
1)Dukkha Dukkha
2)Viparinama Dukkha
3)Sankhara Dukkha
For me, "dukkha" means "suffering" above; except where it means "pain".
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Re: Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:11 am

For me, "dukkha" means "suffering
Didn't you say that "suffering" is not the right word for Dukkha?
How can you apply your preferred translation to above three?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:24 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:11 am
Didn't you say that "suffering" is not the right word for Dukkha?
No.In relation to the four noble truths/dependent origination, suffering is OK translation.
SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:11 am
How can you apply your preferred translation to above three?
1. Suffering about/due to pain;
2. Suffering about/due to change;
3. Suffering of/due to mental fabricating (aka 'papanca').
SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:05 am
2)Viparinama Dukkha is the change in mental, physical and objects. So objects do not suffer but they are subject to change and unable to control.
No. Viparinama Dukkha is suffering over or about changing objects, as literally explained in SN 22.1.

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:28 am

Which means you are happy to translate "Dukkha" as "suffering"
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:32 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:28 am
Which means you are happy to translate "Dukkha" as "suffering"
Only in contexts related to the four noble truths. Obviously "sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair" means "suffering".
And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
Do you think 'suffering' or 'stress' is wrong below? :shrug:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time a certain householder's dear & beloved little son, his only child, had died. Because of his death, the father had no desire to work or to eat. He kept going to the cemetery and crying out, "Where have you gone, my only little child? Where have you gone, my only little child?"

Then he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him, "Householder, your faculties are not those of one who is steady in his own mind. There is an aberration in your faculties."

"Lord, how could there not be an aberration in my faculties? My dear & beloved little son, my only child, has died. Because of his death, I have no desire to work or to eat. I keep going to the cemetery and crying out, 'Where have you gone, my only little child? Where have you gone, my only little child?'"

"That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is — for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear."
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Kim OHara
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Re: Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:02 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:33 pm
...
Kim OHara wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:03 pm
First Noble Truth... "Unsatisfactoriness is inherent in all life's experiences," would, I think, be closer. It's not as catchy, though.
Difficult to understand how you can come to such a conclusion. Where does the First Noble Truth say it applies to all life's experiences? :shrug:
I can't remember all the details but there was some irregularity with the grammar (in Pali or Sanskrit or both) of the 4NT as well as the problem of translating the single word "dukkha".
Anyway, I was trying to emphasize - for myself as much as anyone else - that the dukkha is not due to the object we perceive but to our emotionally-loaded perception of it. The sunrise, for instance, is not pain, suffering, affliction or any other misery. Rather, the dukkha in it is due to our response to it: we say, "Oh, now I have to go to work! That's horrible!" or "That's wonderful! I want every day to start like this!" (and suffer when the next day doesn't), etc.

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:07 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:02 am
Rather, the dukkha in it is due to our response to it: we say, "Oh, now I have to go to work! That's horrible!" or "That's wonderful! I want every day to start like this!" (and suffer when the next day doesn't), etc.
The clinging or upadana?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

Post by SarathW » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:20 am

"That's wonderful! I want every day to start like this!" (and suffer when the next day doesn't), etc.
Agree.
Object don't turn the out to be the way we want them to be.
They just do their own things and we do not have control over it.
Even if we control it, only for certain time only
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:40 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:33 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:08 pm
I'm thinking "dissatisfaction". I'm not completely satisfied with it, though... :?
Vedana & the four noble truths appear to be akin to 'phenomenology'. The three characteristics appear to be akin to 'ontology' (AN 3.136). Therefore 'dissatisfaction' appears non-applicable to 'ontology'. Sutta series from SN 35.140 appears to be 'ontology' rather than 'phenomenology'.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.141/en/sujato
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.144/en/sujato
Even if we were talking about ontology rather than phenomenology, "dissatisfaction" works perfectly well as a transferred epithet. But I don't see any reason to think that the Buddha was talking about ontology, which is why I prefer "dissatisfaction".

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DooDoot
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Re: Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:46 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:40 am
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:33 pm
AN 3.136
But I don't see any reason to think that the Buddha was talking about ontology
So when AN 3.136 appears to say the Three Characteristics inherently exist in relation to conditioned things (such as the five aggregates) regardless of whether or not they are perceived; and are law of nature, regularity of natural principles, invariance of natural principles; this is not "ontology"?
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:40 am
I prefer "dissatisfaction".
Personally, I can't see the English "dissatisfaction" as a fitting translation for any of the three contexts of dukkha. For example:

1. When eye sees a form, dissatisfaction vedana arises?

2. The five aggregates clung to as one's own are dissatisfaction?

3. The earth element, the eye, sounds, are dissatisfaction?

"Dissatisfaction" sounds like something Mick Jagger & Keith Richards experience due to too many groupies.

:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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