Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

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cappuccino
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:32 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
cappuccino wrote:unconditioned consciousness remains
Atman?
It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,
~ S 43.1-44

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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Antaradhana » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:09 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:32 pm
Antaradhana wrote:
cappuccino wrote:unconditioned consciousness remains
Atman?
It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,
~ S 43.1-44
"And what, bhikkhus, is the unconditioned? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the unconditioned". SN 43.1

***
Consciousness is impermanent and it ceases.

"With the cessation of consciousness,
that’s where this ceases".
DN 11

"Consciousness is impermanent, both of the past and the future, not to speak of the present. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple is indifferent towards consciousness of the past; he does not seek delight in consciousness of the future; and he is practising for revulsion towards consciousness of the present, for its fading away and cessation". SN 22.9

"Consciousness is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, to vanishing, to fading away, to cessation. Through its cessation, cessation is spoken of". SN 22.21

"Consciousness is nonself. For if, bhikkhus, consciousness were self, this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and it would be possible to have it of consciousness: ‘Let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness not be thus.’ But because consciousness is nonself, consciousness leads to affliction, and it is not possible to have it of consciousness: ‘Let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness not be thus...

...Any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self".
SN 22.59

"So too, when he feels a feeling terminating with the body … terminating with life…. He understands: ‘With the breakup of the body, following the exhaustion of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here; mere bodily remains will be left...

...When there are utterly no volitional formations, with the cessation of volitional formations, would consciousness be discerned?”
“No, venerable sir.”
“When there is utterly no consciousness, with the cessation of consciousness, would name-and-form be discerned?”
“No, venerable sir.”."
SN 12.51

"“Name-and-form, friend Koṭṭhita, is not created by oneself, nor is it created by another, nor is it created both by oneself and by another, nor has it arisen fortuitously, being created neither by oneself nor by another; but rather, with consciousness as condition, name-and-form comes to be.”

“How is it, friend Sāriputta: Is consciousness created by oneself, or is it created by another, or is it created both by oneself and by another, or has it arisen fortuitously, being created neither by oneself nor by another?”

“Consciousness, friend Koṭṭhita, is not created by oneself, nor is it created by another, nor is it created both by oneself and by another, nor has it arisen fortuitously, being created neither by oneself nor by another; but rather, with name-and-form as condition, consciousness comes to be”."
SN 12.67

Are you postulating a consciousness outside of khandhas? Then it is the Atman.

"But, bhikkhus, as to that which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’ and ‘consciousness’ —the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because for a long time this has been held to by him, appropriated, and grasped thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’ Therefore the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it". SN 12.61
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:58 pm

Antaradhana wrote: "And what, bhikkhus, is the unconditioned? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the unconditioned"
SN 43.1
“When there is the dispelling
of passion and desire
for things that are cherished –
pleasant sights and sounds,
thoughts and feelings –
the Deathless state,
Nibbæna
appears.

Mindful
in the here and now,
those who know this
are forever calmed –
they have
crossed over
beyond
the world.”
~ SN 1086-7

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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Antaradhana » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:37 pm

Did the Buddha say that after the onset of the final nibbana without the rest of the fuel, any consciousness continues? No. Such a consciousness is fictional.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Antaradhana » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:58 pm

I recommend reading http://api.equinoxpub.com/articles/fulltext/7139 chapter "Final Nibbana".
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:34 am

Antaradhana wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:37 pm
Did the Buddha say that after the final nibbana without the rest of the fuel, any consciousness continues?
it's called the Deathless state

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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Antaradhana » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:41 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:34 am
Antaradhana wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:37 pm
Did the Buddha say that after the final nibbana without the rest of the fuel, any consciousness continues?
it's called the Deathless state
Yes, only he calls the element, not the state. The Buddha also calls nibbana "unborn." Because it is a cessation of existence (bhava nirodho), and no further birth or death will follow.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:46 am

When there is the dispelling
of passion and desire
for things that are cherished –
pleasant sights and sounds,
thoughts and feelings –
the Deathless state,
Nibbæna

appears.

~ SN 1086-7

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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Antaradhana » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:15 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:46 am
~ SN 1086-7
I do not understand what this sutta number is. Write a standard sutta number so that I can see the Pali original. Sometimes the phrase amata-dhatu is translated in this way. Sometimes in poetic stanzas, amatam padam is written for rhythm.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:18 am

it's from

THE ISLAND
An Anthology of the Buddha’s
Teachings on Nibbæna

Edited and with Commentary by
Ajahn Pasanno & Ajahn Amaro

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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:51 am

Antaradhana wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:31 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:26 pm
unconditioned consciousness remains
Atman?
It might be interesting to consider the practical difference between the experience of Atman/Brahman, and the experience of Nibbana, the "supreme bliss".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:44 am

Antaradhana wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:15 am
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:46 am
~ SN 1086-7
I do not understand what this sutta number is. Write a standard sutta number so that I can see the Pali original. Sometimes the phrase amata-dhatu is translated in this way. Sometimes in poetic stanzas, amatam padam is written for rhythm.
Perhaps here: https://suttacentral.net/snp5.9/en/anandajoti#sc3

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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by auto » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:04 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:06 pm
..
yes to what you point out.
just excerpts,

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
These are the six properties: the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, the wind property, the space property, the consciousness property.
When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the earth property and makes the earth property fade from the mind.
When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the liquid property and makes the liquid property fade from the mind.
When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the space property and makes the space property fade from the mind.
"There remains only consciousness: pure & bright.
with the consciousness it is different since there it is the sensory contact what is to be felt(3 types of feelings instead of upekkha the 3rd is adukkhamasukha) by consciousness ceases.
"There remains only equanimity: pure & bright, pliant, malleable, & luminous.
..
"One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.
take this sutta excerpt

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
..
"Monk, the property of light is discerned in dependence on darkness. The property of beauty is discerned in dependence on the unattractive...
"Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:17 am

Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Yes
    • If considered the mental aggregates collectively as consciousness.



No
    • If considered separately.

      It is the vedana that experiences. (of course, there is vedana [among others] occurring parallel to nibbana, in suitable cittas.)


      • Consciousness only cognizes.
      • Perception only ?? perceives ?? or whatever.
        ("Perception" is one of the most unsatisfactory translations, speaking of five-aggregates.)
      • Other "Sankharas" only do their fair share of duties.


      It is the vedana that experiences Nibbana.

      Image
.


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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:49 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:00 am
sentinel wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:02 pm
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:30 pm

fruition consciousness (phalacitta) have nibbāna as their object.
That is incomprehensible . How can the consciousness which is conditioned have the unconditioned as it object ?
Maybe it's like living near a mountain. The mountain is always there, but you're not continuously looking at it.
....
:goodpost:
.


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