Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Antaradhana
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Antaradhana »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:47 pm
Antaradhana wrote:
cappuccino wrote:Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around
Nibbana is not viññāṇa. Really, it just isn’t.
K

those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body.
Cunda Sutta
It means touching the mind (meaning mental body) to nibbana. The deathless element is one of the poetic epithets of nibbana, since there are no more births and no deaths.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by cappuccino »

Antaradhana wrote: It means touching the mind (meaning mental body) to nibbana.
there is no mental body, you're not making sense
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Antaradhana »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:10 pm
Antaradhana wrote: It means touching the mind (meaning mental body) to nibbana.
there is no mental body, you're not making sense
Yeah, they're in the meat body in rupa-jhana. And they touch the deathless element with their palm ;)
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

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the quote is concerning human monks
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

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cappuccino wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:24 pm the quote is concerning human monks
I know.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by sentinel »

Antaradhana wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:22 pm With the end of life 5 khandha finally fall apart, only bodily remains remain.
Not quite so , there still remains sila samadhi panna liberation and supramundane knowledge .
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by sentinel »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:47 pm

those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body.
Cunda Sutta
Body here means what ?
You always gain by giving
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

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:shrug:
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

sentinel wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:42 pm
Nwad wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:32 pm

Nibbana element . By taking Nibbana element as mind-object,

:anjali:
Nibbana as element , an element that is not same as four elements ?
Nibbana is sometimes referred to as an element (dhatu), which can have a broader meaning than the four great elements.
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

sentinel wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:02 pm
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:30 pm
fruition consciousness (phalacitta) have nibbāna as their object.
That is incomprehensible . How can the consciousness which is conditioned have the unconditioned as it object ?
Maybe it's like living near a mountain. The mountain is always there, but you're not continuously looking at it.

It depends whether you think of Nibbana as a presence, or an absence. The suttas describe it in both ways.
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:47 pm
Antaradhana wrote:
cappuccino wrote:Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around
Nibbana is not viññāṇa. Really, it just isn’t.
K

those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body.
Cunda Sutta
Does the Cunda Sutta say that?
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

As a general comment, it would be helpful if people could reference suttas properly in these discussions. It's then easier for others to check the source material, and understand the context of these quotes.
Another advantage of referencing the source sutta is then not needing to paste in huge chunks of text, when a couple of lines is often sufficient to illustrate the point being made.
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by cappuccino »

Dinsdale wrote:
cappuccino wrote: those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body.
Cunda Sutta
Does the Cunda Sutta say that?
Cunda Sutta: Cunda
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by mikenz66 »

Antaradhana wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:32 pm
cappuccino wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:29 pmConsciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around
https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/05/13 ... ust-isn’t/
See also the discussion of the passage at the start of Ven Analayo's lecture on Ven Nanananda's Nibbana Sermon 6.
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/resourc ... -lectures/
There is more detail in the lecture itself.
-------------------------------
Translation Walshe (1987: 179)
“Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all-luminous
That’s where earth, water, fire and air find no footing,
There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul,
There ‘name-and-form’ are wholly destroyed.
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.”

Ceylonese and PTS ed. second line have pahaṃ https://suttacentral.net/search?query=paha instead of pabhaṃ https://suttacentral.net/search?query=pabh%C4%81.

PED: 448 s.v. paha has “flight of steps from which to step down into the
water” ... “accessible”, followed by adding that “it is not at all improbable to
take pahaṃ as ppr. of pajahati (as contracted fr. pajahaṅ like pahatvāna for
pajahitvāna at Sn 639), thus meaning ‘giving up entirely’.”
...
Norman 1987 in an article entirely dedicated to this passage concludes: “I
would suggest that an earlier version, perhaps the earliest version, of the
epithet had the form sabbato-paha ... it is clear from the complete absence of
any reference to the verb pabhā - that the Dīgha-nikāya commentarial
tradition which Buddhaghosa was following did not know about the possibility
of explaining sabbato-pa(b)ha as coming from that verb ... This makes it clear
that the commentarial tradition came into being at a time when the spelling –
pabha had not yet replaced –paha , or the explanation ‘shining’ would certainly
have been included.”

“It is likely that when the canonical texts were translated or transformed
into the language of the Theravādin canon, which we call Pāli, the redactors
thought that –paha was inappropriate to the dialect and they wished to
translate it.”

Regarding the variant pahaṃ still found in the PTS edition, however,
Norman reasons: “I do not think that this is a trace of the original pre-Pāli
reading. It seems rather to be an error in the Sinhalese scribal tradition, where
ha and bha are very similar and easily confused.”

[Ven Analayo goes on to discuss parallels, which do not generally support the "luminous"
It's also important to read the whole passage:
“Consciousness that’s invisible,
infinite, radiant all round.
Here’s where water and earth,
fire and air find no footing;

Here’s where long and short,
fine and coarse, beautiful and ugly;
here’s where name and form
cease with nothing left over—
with the cessation of consciousness,
that’s where this ceases
.”’”

https://suttacentral.net/dn11/en/sujato#36
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by cappuccino »

mikenz66 wrote:It's also important to read the whole passage:
conditioned consciousness ceases,

unconditioned consciousness remains
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Antaradhana »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:26 pmunconditioned consciousness remains
Atman?
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
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