Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

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sentinel
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Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:29 am

I supposed for a person to know what is nibbana , it must be something already adhere available became the tool to understand it and experiencing it .
And the only candidate appear possible for this is the consciousness . However , it appears the text description on how one experience of nibbana is unclear . What do you think ?
:buddha1:

SarathW
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:02 am

There is nothing called "Nibbana" to experience.
Nibbana is not a thing like six senses.
It is a state of nothing felt.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

sentinel
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:29 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:02 am
There is nothing called "Nibbana" to experience.
Nibbana is not a thing like six senses.
It is a state of nothing felt.
If can not experience nibbana , then how do you come to conclusion that nibbana is what ?
This statement appear contradicting . Nothing can be felt , then what are you suggesting.?
:buddha1:

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Antaradhana
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Antaradhana » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:10 pm

In life (nibbana with residual fuel) - yes. As for the final nibbana without residue:

"Consciousness is impermanent, both of the past and the future, not to speak of the present. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple is indifferent towards consciousness of the past; he does not seek delight in consciousness of the future; and he is practising for revulsion towards consciousness of the present, for its fading away and cessation". SN 22.9
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:30 pm

The types of consciousness known as path (maggacitta) and fruition consciousness (phalacitta) have nibbāna as their object.

Some quotes from the Debate of King Milinda on nibbāna.
8. “Is cessation nibbāna?”
“Yes, O king. All foolish worldlings take pleas­ure in the senses and their objects; they find delight in them and cling to them. Hence they are carried down by the flood [of passion] and are not released from birth and suffering. However, the wise disciple of the noble ones does not delight in those things. So craving ceases in him. Thence, attachment ceases, becom­ing ceases, birth ceases, old age, death, grief, lamen­ta­tion, pain, sorrow, and despair cease to exist. Thus it is that cessation is nibbāna.”

9. “Does everyone attain nibbāna?”
“Not all, O king; but whoever conducts himself rightly, understands what should be understood, perceives what should be perceived, aban­dons what should be aban­doned, develops what should be developed and real­ises what should be realised;² he attains nibbāna.”

10. “Can one who has not attained nibbāna know that it is blissful?”
“Yes indeed, O king. As those who have not had their hands and feet cut off can know how painful a condition it is by the cries of those who have; so can those who have not attained nibbāna know it is blissful by hearing the joyful words of those who have attained it.”
For more, see What is Nibbāna?
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cappuccino
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:37 pm

SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:02 am
There is nothing called "Nibbana" to experience.
Nibbana is not a thing like six senses.
It is a state of nothing felt.
100% incorrect
"the deathless element free from clinging, the sorrowless state that is void of stain" (Itiv. 51)

sentinel
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:02 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:30 pm

fruition consciousness (phalacitta) have nibbāna as their object.
That is incomprehensible . How can the consciousness which is conditioned have the unconditioned as it object ?
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cappuccino
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:06 pm

consciousness can be unconditioned

auto
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by auto » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:26 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:37 pm
SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:02 am
There is nothing called "Nibbana" to experience.
Nibbana is not a thing like six senses.
It is a state of nothing felt.
100% incorrect
"the deathless element free from clinging, the sorrowless state that is void of stain" (Itiv. 51)
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html
This Unbinding is pleasant."
When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

Cappuccino you are same way bewildered?
"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.

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Nwad
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by Nwad » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:32 pm

Nibbana can be a mind object, but it is "visible" not by presence of some caracteristics, but by absence of them. As silence can be a mind object by absence of noize, as stilness can be a mind object as absense of mouvement, as space can be a mind objcet by absence of form, so Nibbana can be a mind object as absence of dukkha, of impermanence, of constructed, of self identification, of ignorance, of feelings, and all other kinds of fluctuations and "pollution". Nibbana is impenetrable element, you can feel it with your mind as you can feel hardness of floor while you sleep on the floor during today's Uposatha day ;)

Nibbana element is on the other side of all what is conditioned, by abandoning what is conditioned, fabricated, impermanent, by observing it with wisdom as not me, mine my self, and putting it aside a practitioner can find that element which is uncreated, unfabricated, unconditionned, umpenetrable, pure, stable, without name, form, four elements, etc. By taking Nibbana element as mind-object, at the moment of death, if he is not disturbed by fear of death and pain of death, one can cease all future existance by not following mouvements of fabrications, he it detached from it, as a spark is detached from anvil after warsmith's hit, and fade out is the air without tuching the ground.

:anjali:

auto
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by auto » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:36 pm

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato
“But ma’am, when a mendicant has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, how many kinds of contact do they experience?” “Saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpattiyā vuṭṭhitaṃ panāyye, bhikkhuṃ kati phassā phusantī”ti?

“They experience three kinds of contact: emptiness, signless, and undirected contacts.” “Saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpattiyā vuṭṭhitaṃ kho, āvuso visākha, bhikkhuṃ tayo phassā phusanti—suññato phasso, animitto phasso, appaṇihito phasso”ti.
after cessation of perception and feeling(which i think is cetana)

there will be three contacts to be experienced.

then mind inclines towards seclusion/viveka. Jhana.
“Their mind slants, slopes, and inclines to seclusion.” “Saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpattiyā vuṭṭhitassa kho, āvuso visākha, bhikkhuno vivekaninnaṃ cittaṃ hoti, vivekapoṇaṃ vivekapabbhāran”ti.

tho nibbana isn't here mentioned. hmm.

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/v/viveka
Viveka,[fr.vi+vic] detachment,loneliness,separation,seclusion; “singleness” (of heart),discrimination (of thought)

i think 1st jhana is nibbana but there is jsut higher liberation and it is 2nd jhana etc ?
Last edited by auto on Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sentinel
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:37 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:26 pm

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html
This Unbinding is pleasant."
When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"
SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:02 am

There is nothing called "Nibbana" to experience.
Nibbana is not a thing like six senses.
It is a state of nothing felt.

Now this riddle statement explain what ?

Nibbana is a state ? State implied conditioned .

Nibbana is an element ? An element is conditioned .
:buddha1:

sentinel
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:42 pm

Nwad wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:32 pm


Nibbana element . By taking Nibbana element as mind-object,

:anjali:
Nibbana as element , an element that is not same as four elements ?
:buddha1:

auto
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by auto » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:48 pm

sentinel wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:37 pm
Now this riddle statement explain what ?

Nibbana is a state ? State implied conditioned .

Nibbana is an element ? An element is conditioned .
Sutta says you can understand it by line of reasoning.

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html
So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant.
i assume it is someone tells you something and you get it what he says, so this way you also know what nibbana is, it doesn't really exist like here take some nibbana pls.
hmm it seem just peeps not understand how when there is nothing felt is pleasant. I think there is the minimal amount of texts you can derive all necessary things what can be elaborated.


i.e a party goer doesn't understand that not going to party will result in pleasant feeling(eventually after getting over the craving)). For him/her its unbelievable.

sentinel
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Re: Does the consciousness experience nibbana ?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:02 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:48 pm

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html

Above text says cessation of feeling perception resulting in abandonment of defilement , I don't know how it happens ? :shrug:

It appears the other text says by following eight right path one would attain right samadhi hence one eventually attain liberation .
Cessation of feeling perception can not be equated with right samadhi .
:buddha1:

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