Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

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Antaradhana
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Re: Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

Post by Antaradhana » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:35 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:28 pm
Might I ask what is the relationship of an Arahant with the Noble Truths, who has finished the task, laid down the burden and achieved the goal of the holy life?
He is not attached to them, but he cannot commit acts contrary to the Dhamma, nor can he teach in contrary to the Four Truths.
Last edited by Antaradhana on Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

Post by form » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:37 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:27 pm
form wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:22 am
It seems to me that just penetrating the 4NT will be enough to get beyond Dukka. So what are the other stuff doing in the nikayas?
The suttas appear to say stream-entry was attained from penetrating the 4NTs (SN 56.11) and arahantship was attained from penetrating the three characteristics (SN 22.59). Its seems the 3Cs is a more powerful realisation than the 4NTs.
Interesting stuff.

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Re: Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

Post by Antaradhana » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:42 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:27 pm
form wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:22 am
It seems to me that just penetrating the 4NT will be enough to get beyond Dukka. So what are the other stuff doing in the nikayas?
The suttas appear to say stream-entry was attained from penetrating the 4NTs (SN 56.11) and arahantship was attained from penetrating the three characteristics (SN 22.59). Its seems the 3Cs is a more powerful realisation than are included.
The 3Cs are included in the 4NTs. Arahant just comprehends deeper than sotapanna.

"When his mind is thus concentrated, pure and bright, unblemished, free from defects, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the destruction of the cankers. He understands as it really is: ‘This is suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘These are the cankers.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the origin of the cankers.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the cessation of the cankers.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of the cankers.’

“Knowing and seeing thus, his mind is liberated from the canker of sensual desire, from the canker of existence, and from the canker of ignorance. When it is liberated, the knowledge arises: ‘It is liberated.’ He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is nothing further beyond this".
DN 2
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

Post by Akashad » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:26 pm

form wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:22 am
It seems to me that just penetrating the 4NT will be enough to get beyond Dukka. So what are the other stuff doing in the nikayas?

I think it's to get you to the point where you can actually penetrate the four noble truths.

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Re: Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

Post by sentinel » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:06 pm

Four noble truth , can be seen as such . This is just my understanding .

First turning , one realized the path after seeing the dependent origination .(stream entry)
Second turning , one continuing practise accordingly on the path . (once&no return)
Third turning , one completing and accomplished the path by attaining liberation .(arhat)
So completing 3 turning 12 line one attained the enlightenment .

There are other dhamma not revealed by the Buddha . He said those are not conducive for ending of suffering .
:buddha1:

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Re: Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:16 pm

Akashad wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:26 pm
form wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:22 am
It seems to me that just penetrating the 4NT will be enough to get beyond Dukka. So what are the other stuff doing in the nikayas?

I think it's to get you to the point where you can actually penetrate the four noble truths.
While concentrating on Paticca Samuppada and then panca sila I am still trying to understand the prominence given to respecting and protecting "life" as prana. The first precept is panatipata veramani sikka padam samadiyami. It proves the prominence in protecting life ( as an energy I believe) with respect to beings, human or animals or even micro sized beings. The four noble truths are based on the existence of all beings with life.

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Re: Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:49 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:22 pm
Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:52 am
:bow:
The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths exist, whether or not they are discovered by a Buddha. SarathW seems to be posting Mahayana & Christian ideas, including...
I think that his point was that the Path itself is conditioned... https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato#10.2

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Re: Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

Post by Zom » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:18 pm

It seems to me that just penetrating the 4NT will be enough to get beyond Dukka. So what are the other stuff doing in the nikayas?
All suttas or their parts correspond either to all 4 noble truths, or to some of them. Suttas are either about dukkha, or about things which lead to dukkha, or about things which end dukkha, or about methods of this ending. All this is the Four Noble Truths.

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Re: Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

Post by form » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:43 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:49 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:22 pm
Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:52 am
:bow:
The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths exist, whether or not they are discovered by a Buddha. SarathW seems to be posting Mahayana & Christian ideas, including...
I think that his point was that the Path itself is conditioned... https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato#10.2

:heart:
Mike
This is an additional point I find very important to dhamma. It was mentioned again in his last words.

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Re: Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:47 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:49 pm
I think that his point was that the Path itself is conditioned... https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato#10.2
My impression above is you are misconstruing the term "conditioned" to mean "thought-constructed" (rather than "causal"). :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

Post by form » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:55 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:47 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:49 pm
I think that his point was that the Path itself is conditioned... https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato#10.2
My impression above is you are misconstruing the term "conditioned" to mean "thought-constructed" (rather than "causal"). :smile:
Not directing at anyone. I think DooDoot brought out a good point to clarify. What is the definition of "conditioned" in a Buddhist sense. To me it seems the same as in modern scientific sense, as factors that support a phenomenon.

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Re: Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:16 am

“But ma’am, is the noble eightfold path conditioned or unconditioned?”
“Ariyo panāyye, aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo saṅkhato udāhu asaṅkhato”ti?

“The noble eightfold path is conditioned.”
“Ariyo kho, āvuso visākha, aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo saṅkhato”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato#10.2
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:11 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:47 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:49 pm
I think that his point was that the Path itself is conditioned... https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato#10.2
My impression above is you are misconstruing the term "conditioned" to mean "thought-constructed" (rather than "causal"). :smile:
I was simply quoting the sutta, so I can't see how I could be misconstruing anything. In any case much conditionality is clearly connected with thoughts.
Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for feeling. What you feel, you perceive. What you perceive, you think about. What you think about, you proliferate. What you proliferate about is the source from which a person is beset by concepts of identity that emerge from the proliferation of perceptions. This occurs with respect to sights known by the eye in the past, future, and present.
https://suttacentral.net/mn18/en/sujato#16.1
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Re: Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:47 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:11 am
I was simply quoting the sutta
My impression is you were imputing your personal interpretation upon a translation rather than quoting a sutta.
mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:11 am
In any case much conditionality is clearly connected with thoughts.
A plant is conditioned by many things, such as sunlight, water, soil, plant matter, chemicals, etc. A plant is not conditioned by thoughts. My view is your interpretation of the term "conditioned" ("saṅkhata"), similar to SarathW, was solipsism. Kind regards :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Did the Buddha teach anything other than four noble truths?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:55 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:47 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:11 am
I was simply quoting the sutta
My impression is you were imputing your personal interpretation upon a translation rather than quoting a sutta.
I hardly see how quoting a sutta can be taken as an interpretation. Perhaps you are overinterpreting your psychic powers.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:47 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:11 am
In any case much conditionality is clearly connected with thoughts.
No. A plant is conditioned by many things, such as sunlight, water, soil, plant matter, chemicals, etc. A plant is not conditioned by thoughts. My view is your interpretation of "conditioned" was seriously flawed. Kind regards :smile:
Thank you for expressing your opinion, but the topic is the Noble Truths and the Path, where the constitutionality appears to have little to do with plants and fertilisers.

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Mike

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